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Old 12-17-2005, 03:47 AM   #61
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Man is not the pride of creation. The pride of creation is the silence on the 7th day; this silence can be interpreted as a symbol for the harmonic, balanced life of mankind with nature.
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Old 12-17-2005, 03:53 AM   #62
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Plus, again a special add.on for A_Wanderer: I have shared more material on that topic in one of my earlier threads, you can look for it since you´re a premium member. I think the thread was called something like "Development policies".
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:13 AM   #63
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Wow touchy, guess that one can really hit a nerve if you cut at it hard enough
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If technology is so great and the solution to all poverty, why has the overall standard of living not increased significantly in the last 50 years? If technology was the means to save people who hunger, then why didn´t it save the big numbers since the start of the 50s?
Famine is really more often a product of poor government policy than a genuine shortage, in relation to the 20th Century compared to the 19th Century one can see that food production has increased at a much greater rate than population growth and the yield of farmland has also increased, that increase is a direct result of scientific investigation and technological application. Since 1950 the population has doubled and food production has tripled, but by the same token food security has dropped in some parts of the developing world leading to famine. But overall people are better fed today than they were 50 years ago and in the developing world have a higher average daily calorie intake. The negative trends that are observed in some places are results of goverment and unsustainable farming practices that are supressing supply, I do not think that they are a direct result of ag tech. The problem as you highlighted is the unequal distribution and trade barriers (and I think that elimination of subsidies will be a step in the right direction). The great famines in the 20th Century have a much higher correlation to experiments in collectivism by totalitarian communist regimes than a genuine inability for production.
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Oh and I think the H-Bomb is a great technological invention, doesn´t harm nature at all and will save a couple of million lives
How is it not one of the most remarkable inventions of mankind? Applied to weapons uncontrolled nuclear fusion is surely a terrible destructive power but when we can harness that very same power in a controlled manner we will possess a virtually unlimited source of energy, such a development could eliminate the need for fossil fuels and nuclear fission for energy production.
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:19 AM   #64
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Man is not the pride of creation. The pride of creation is the silence on the 7th day; this silence can be interpreted as a symbol for the harmonic, balanced life of mankind with nature.
And if this is just mythology then what?

Human beings are just an intelligent species of primate that can use tools to manipulate our environment to our advantage and expand into new habitats without the need to evolve into a new ecological niche - we want to settle the cold we kill animals and use their furs, we want to have food instead of gathering then we rotate crops, we want to move around we domesticate horses, we want to defend ourselves we build fortified cities etc. all the way up to automobiles, material engineering and genetic engineering - our imperitive has always been modifying to our advantage, I think that we are at a stage now where our advantage is protecting the environment and technology is the path that we use. Wherever we have expanded to human beings will alter the environment and can at times do it drastically (the colonisation of Australia by homo sapiens is marked by exctinction of megafauna and changes in vegetation). It's what we do, the only feesible ways that the world can keep existing is for us to do what we do best and develop a solution, or we can wait for this system of self organising criticality to collapse and emerge with stable population levels.

What about mass extinctions? Meteorite collisions, massive periods of volcanism are we but a super-species, an evolutionary wildcard that brings about massive changes due to our unique attributes. The world changes, it always has and always will. There is no perfect state of creation, there never-ever has been because as long as life has existed things die off and dominant forms take their place, environments change and those that cannot adapt die. Treating it all as a wonderfully static piece of perfection is dogma that does not fit with the facts. For the facts I ask people to look up the 5 previous mass extinction events and the current holocene mass extinction event.
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:25 AM   #65
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How many months have you spent in the developing world?
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:29 AM   #66
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None, and I am not claiming any special first hand experience and anecdotes to backup my assertions.
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:40 AM   #67
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer

The problem as you highlighted is the unequal distribution and trade barriers (and I think that elimination of subsidies will be a step in the right direction).
Agreed. It´s just that I don´t see it coming.

You ask me why you hit a nerve? Because outr develoüped industries have been exporting technology to developing countries and they made lots of profit by doing so. At the same time, subsidies make it impossible that the products generated with this technology are sold at the world market. Consider that those two facts are bound to each other.

What is the sense of having, say, 10,000 agricultural machines if you can´t get a fair price on the world market for the food you produce? there´s no sense. Except of the profits the industrialized nations are making.

Also consider: to be on the forefront of technological inventions, a country needs extensive Research and Development. Developing countries can not invest in R&D - it can be very expensive.

The trick works like that: export technology, make money, but don´t export R&D knowledge (they could develop their own systems, technology, machines - and would be more independent then). The center (USA, Europe, Japan, maybe Australia) keeps everything under control, while periphery still suffers.

I am for a reasonable use of technology where it is needed, instead of a "let´s try this and see what it brings" attitude (see GM food).
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Old 12-17-2005, 04:44 AM   #68
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I think every plant, every animal, every living being has the same right to live like a man.
Come on, non-sentient life forms having equal rights to man? What about Tsetse flies or malarial mosquitos should they have equal "right to live" as human beings? The rights of man should not be extended to non-sentient organisms because they are unnacountable for their actions. We are not going to be sending a tiger to jail if it kills and consumes a gazelle, that is nature, that is the order of things. Likewise I am going to be species-centric and state that human life has a higher value for human society than other animals and sacrificing other animals for human benefit is perfectly fine. This includes hunting (I can speak from experience in trapping, skinning and eating rabbit, a pest of a creature here in Australia that does damage here), domestication, consumption, animal testing, using animal hides for clothing. As long as the animals are treated in a humane manner I do not have a problem with it.
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I also despise the shortsightedness of techno-materialists when it comes to the systems of nature. That balanced system has been in tune (sometimes more, sometimes less, but basically always in tune) for 100,000 years and more. Why change it?
IT HAS NOT BEEN IN TUNE! What about the freaking ice age that wiped a shitload of species off the map and nearly took out human beings that only ended 10,000 years ago? Whatever happened to the wolly mammoths, smilodons and dimetrodons? What about North Africa before desertification managed to transform so much fertile land into sandy waste? These major changes occured without the intervention of man. Increased volcanism during the cretaceous allowed the atmosphere to be pumped with CO2, I am taking bulk quantity that is several magnitudes higher than what we have today. That was a natural process, natural global warming, the contribution of human emissions today relative to that given off by the earth during volacanic events etc. is less than 5%, or we can go to the carboniferous period when mass glaciation occured and the entire continent, it also had the burial of masive quantities of carbon from swamps that lead to oxygen concentrations 80% higher than today. The earth is dynamic, understanding it is science, understanding our limits, what we can do, what we cannot do and what we shouldn't do is also a product of science.

It has had no fewer than six mass extinction events when >30% of all species were wiped of the face of the planet.

Look at things in terms of geological time, human beings may be able to pack an apparently awesome punch in the 2 million years that we have had to populate this rock but on the scale of the world we are a geological blink of an eye. Geological time is the opposite of being short sighted.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:00 AM   #69
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None, and I am not claiming any special first hand experience and anecdotes to backup my assertions.
Fine. I have been spending two months in India, six weeks in West Africa, three or four in South Africa, two months in South America, seven weeks in Central America and the Caribbean, and about two more months in SE Asia.

Believe me, I have been talking to many people. Borlaug is wrong when he says "If they lived just one month amid the misery of the developing world, as I have for fifty years, they'd be crying out for tractors and fertilizer and irrigation canals".

Technology itself may be necessary to improve living standards - like in the case of hygiene, clean water, etc. I am not foolish, I know that techology that cleans dirty water from microbes can be essential if you don´t want half of the population to die.

I have also talked to Indians who try to grow species of plants that were eradicated by colonizers. Fertilizers? They will laugh at you when you start talking of the positive impact of fertilizers. Believe me, these people have more knowledge of the sacred Earth than you and I combined will ever have. Just because they´ve been dealing with extermination (of plants, animals, and their own race) for centuries.

It´s about time you go there and talk to the people. An elitist prejudice of someone who hasn´t been there, who hasn´t been talking to the people, is just not credible enough for me, sorry.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:12 AM   #70
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Your speaking about the earth as if it is some mystical thing, unless you are being metaphorical that is illogical.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:21 AM   #71
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer


1. Come on, non-sentient life forms having equal rights to man? What about Tsetse flies or malarial mosquitos should they have equal "right to live" as human beings?


2. We are not going to be sending a tiger to jail if it kills and consumes a gazelle, that is nature, that is the order of things.

3. Likewise I am going to be species-centric and state that human life has a higher value for human society than other animals and sacrificing other animals for human benefit is perfectly fine.

4. As long as the animals are treated in a humane manner I do not have a problem with it.
1. Imo yes, all creatures have the equal right to live.

2. That´s true. And we´re not going to send a man to jail when he´s hunting. To be fair, we should include that a tiger apparently needs meat; the human race does not need it (you can see that in the form of the teeth).

It needs to be added that I am not against hunting when done in a responsible manner. I like to eat meat. You will have to agree, however, that 15,000 chicken living under extremely bad conditions in an animal concentration camp is not to compare with a tiger killing a gazelle. The problem is mass livestock husbandry.

The development got out of control, can you relate to that? When man started to hunt, he was humble. He even asked for the permission of the animals to kill them (in ancient tribes). Today, we educated Westeners laugh about ritual dances, or masks - we don´t see any real meining in it except of some strange culture that is there to entertain us. What a morbid society we have become!

3. I don´t think so.

4. But they are not treated in a humane manner, they are treated in a human manner: without any respect. Why without respect? Ha, go look up your own argument at 3.

You think human life has a higher value? Our race has a higher value? Go ahead, this argument serves as an excuse for mankind to treat animals just like Nazis treated Jews in concentration camps.


To return to a sound balance for all living beings, we must value the life of other species just as much as ours.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:29 AM   #72
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Your speaking about the earth as if it is some mystical thing, unless you are being metaphorical that is illogical.
True. Planet Earth is full of miracles that we will never be able to explain with our wimpy human logic; asking for the meaning of life like a beggar, while overlooking the miracles.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:41 AM   #73
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A chicken is not a human being, a chicken is a very dumb bird, a human being is a sentient life form. Its not a case of gassing and cremation = slicing the head off and bbq.

I stand by that statement; treating animals humanely is by not inflicting undue pain. Doing things like killing them quickly. It doesn't make a damn difference if their heads are shot off in the back of a farm or if they are run over a buzz saw in an industrial plant. If that makes me the moral equivalent of a Nazi then just say it.

Shutting down mass livestock farming would lead to a serious nutrient defficiencies in all those people who havent the time to hunt or support their own livestock or pay the exhorbitant fees of buying hunted meat.

Fuck the ELF, ALF, PETA and all other of the fucking anti-human "animal-rights" groups and their thuggish tactics. I will enjoy my modern medicine, pets and leathe clothing - they should just live their damn lives without.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:48 AM   #74
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars

True. Planet Earth is full of miracles that we will never be able to explain with our wimpy human logic; asking for the meaning of life like a beggar, while overlooking the miracles.
Really like those miracles in pieces of religious iconography that get proven fakes time and time again? the raw numbers game that of the six billion people on the planet a small number seem to beat odds that are one in a few million? the rising of the sun or the birthing of an infant and all the other of those everyday "miracles"?

Does there even have to be special meaning to life or is that just a great little mental artefact left over to stop insane apes from going insance and facilitating social cohesion and altruism.
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Old 12-17-2005, 06:01 AM   #75
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If we give animals equal rights then do we get to enjoy things like honey (bees are animals too), pets or racing?
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