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Old 01-05-2006, 06:31 PM   #106
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Of course not, how else does one FIND evidence or proof without first speculation


Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
In certain instances speculation is a good thing to do, but it is not fact. There are many times when what people assume to be true is not the case and it is only by observation and measurement that the facts can be found and the nature of what is going on understood.
RIGHT, and that need for observation and measurement comes from first, having reason to speculate, unless it's stumbled upon, as I said before.
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:34 PM   #107
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I think that you are in a bit of circular logic here. Any speculation becomes irrelevent, hypothesis are constructed to explain the evidence and if they can do it well then they may become a theory. There is a philosophy to the scientific method and it does not include speculation and then calling that speculation a theory.

Are you saying that there is not evidence for a designer but we should treat it as a theory because we won't find it if we eliminate the possibility?
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:38 PM   #108
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Why is it that ID supporters are obsessed with having it taught in a science class when it is in no way scientifically verifiable? It cannot be proven and it cannot be disproven.

If they are so fond of this theory, go push for its inclusion in a religious studies class, or alternately a philosophy class.
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:38 PM   #109
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So who created


?
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:40 PM   #110
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Exactly, the circle continues

I have a watertight theory, in one billion years our inheritors invent a time machine to go back in time and space and seed the early earth to make it habitable for life. Man created life on earth, life on earth formed man.

Disprove me!
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:44 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think that you are in a bit of circular logic here. Any speculation becomes irrelevent, hypothesis are constructed to explain the evidence and if they can do it well then they may become a theory. There is a philosophy to the scientific method and it does not include speculation and then calling that speculation a theory.

Are you saying that there is not evidence for a designer but we should treat it as a theory because we won't find it if we eliminate the possibility?
Again, I refer you to LivLuv's post which truly explains what I would say on this (last) aspect of your question. She explained how evidence is nearly impossible . . . in my words, don't bother looking. God IS superior and supercedes the world of science. But if you read what she wrote, it will, perhaps, fill in more blanks, here. I just agree with her.

As to the first part of your (above) post . . . it's not circular logic . . . hypotheses are not necessarily constructed AFTER evidence is found . . . I mean, an idea or 'speculation' *can* form based on what is SEEN and warrants explanation OR on what is thrown out there as a possibility, worthy of further explanation. (I'm talking about science IN GENERAL here, not necessarily origins, evoloution, etc.)

Your post prior to the ones I've responded to is lenthgy . . . but I will try to address a few thoughts I have re: it in a bit.
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:47 PM   #112
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What does God have to do with Intelligent Design?
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:48 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Why is it that ID supporters are obsessed with having it taught in a science class when it is in no way scientifically verifiable? It cannot be proven and it cannot be disproven.

If they are so fond of this theory, go push for its inclusion in a religious studies class, or alternately a philosophy class.
It's not even allowed to be MENTIONED.

But you highlight a great point . . . it can not be disproven.
And yet, it is not even allowed to be SAID in a public school classroom in the U.S. Not even 30 seconds of one biology class in the whole school year can be used to utter words in its general direction . . .
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:51 PM   #114
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Quote:
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What does God have to do with Intelligent Design?
Well if ANYTHING is circular in my reasoning, it's that designer = God is automatically assumed (believed?) just like for you, designer = God is automatically dismissed.

Why is it easier for you to believe in ALIENS than a supernatural God?
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Old 01-05-2006, 06:54 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Exactly, the circle continues

I have a watertight theory, in one billion years our inheritors invent a time machine to go back in time and space and seed the early earth to make it habitable for life. Man created life on earth, life on earth formed man.

Disprove me!
I'd find it easier to believe that SPOCK seeded the early earth.

And by the way, how can this be a theory, much less a watertight one? You have not one shred of proof about what will happen in the future, much less about what MIGHT happen in the future.

And you scientists looooovvvveeee your facts.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:10 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by got2k9s


Again, I refer you to LivLuv's post which truly explains what I would say on this (last) aspect of your question. She explained how evidence is nearly impossible . . . in my words, don't bother looking. God IS superior and supercedes the world of science.
Then you can't teach it in a science class. You are contradicting yourself.
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:15 PM   #117
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Again, I say:

It's not even allowed to be MENTIONED.

It can't be disproven, yet, it is not even allowed to be SAID in a public school classroom in the U.S.
Not even 30 seconds of one biology class in the whole school year can be used to utter words in its general direction . . .
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Old 01-05-2006, 07:15 PM   #118
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First off, I don't care what anyone's religious beliefs are; but I'm sorry. If any of you here HONESTLY believe that ID is a bona-fide scientific theory, then I believe our educational system has clearly failed to teach children what science is--and, more importantly, what science ISN'T.

Science, first off, is NOT a democracy. You cannot form an interest group and suddenly decide you have a scientific theory. Those who have said that "evolution is just a theory" should get an "F" for scientific knowledge. The common usage of "theory" really describes a "hypothesis," because a scientific theory has undergone vigorous analysis and experimentation to attain that status. "Intelligent design" is merely a hypothesis created by people with ideological aims--to put fundamentalist Christian religion into public schools. Sorry, that does NOT make science at all.

But honestly? Just because ID is a bunch of crap and the existence of God is impossible to definitively prove doesn't mean that people shouldn't have that "blind faith." I just take issue when people get so arrogant as to think that their "blind faith" supercedes others' rights to have different faiths or the lack thereof. That's why secular governments are the most peaceful and free ones, while theocracies always devolve into tyranny and oppression.

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Old 01-05-2006, 07:17 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by got2k9s
Again, I say:

It's not even allowed to be MENTIONED.

It can't be disproven, yet, it is not even allowed to be SAID in a public school classroom in the U.S.
Not even 30 seconds of one biology class in the whole school year can be used to utter words in its general direction . . .
No, it can't be proven. The burden of proof is on ID to prove that it is true, not the other way around. If you want to learn ID, read a book on your own time or formulate a Sunday school class at your church.

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Old 01-05-2006, 07:19 PM   #120
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One of the most widely discussed topics in civilization is whether or not God exists and if so, what is His place and ours. Infinitely more than the small amount of time evolution is actually taught.
The God topic is not exactly getting short shrift.
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