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Old 01-05-2006, 08:58 PM   #136
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Originally posted by got2k9s

Not even 30 seconds of one biology class in the whole school year can be used to utter words in its general direction . . .
It has nothing to do with biology, why should any time be wasted on it?

I'd like there to be a mention of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie for 30 seconds of one biology class. After all, when they spawn, the world's most beautiful child may be born. This is surely grounded in genetics.

And I never, NEVER see any ID proponent asking we include the Hindu theory of the cycles of destruction and creation in a biology class. Talk about thinly veiled intentions.
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:26 PM   #137
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include the Hindu theory of the cycles of destruction and creation
now that is a great story

I sat through an eight hour (over two nights) stage production produced by Peter Brooks of The Mahabharata

this story is older than the Bible
four times longer than the Bible
around 2.5 million words
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:32 PM   #138
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Illogical is illogical
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:47 PM   #139
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Because to completely ignore it is idiotic, considering the staggering amount of people who believe it v. evolution.

If there is already a staggering number of people who believe creationism or intelligent design, why does any time need to be spent teaching it? Why teach kids what they already know? What the fuck is the point in that? Honestly. What the fuck is the purpose?

It's pushing religion -- and a specific one at that -- period.
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Old 01-05-2006, 09:51 PM   #140
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Illogical is illogical
c'mon
Wanderer

as a fan of Serenity

you should enjoy this epic

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Old 01-05-2006, 09:54 PM   #141
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I would raise Mal as a point who isn't a fan of religiousity but he is markedly anti-theist than atheist.

I wouldn't want it stuck into my science classroom any more than other creation epics.
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Old 01-05-2006, 11:16 PM   #142
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Originally posted by deep


now that is a great story

I sat through an eight hour (over two nights) stage production produced by Peter Brooks of The Mahabharata

this story is older than the Bible
four times longer than the Bible
around 2.5 million words

I'm not as familiar with this creation story as with others, but they are all so interesting. Sometimes they are all so similar and sometimes very different. I think Christians tend to hold our creation story up on a pedestal too much (actually the entire Old Testament I think). Ours is in no way unique and there are many much older ones (like the Hindu one). Much of Genesis is merely a re-interpretation of the older stories like the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish. The more I study and open my mind to other creation stories, I feel the better I understand my Christian one.
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Old 01-05-2006, 11:28 PM   #143
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Much of Genesis is merely a re-interpretation of the older stories like the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh and the Enuma Elish. The more I study and open my mind to other creation stories, I feel the better I understand my Christian one.
Not a surprise, considering much of early Judaism's believed Sumerian roots. Even tradition holds that Abraham came from Ur, the most important city in ancient Sumer.

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Old 01-05-2006, 11:29 PM   #144
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However, your reply does lead me toward a question for you . . .

I am wondering about your thoughts on "the evolution of man" being consistent with the Christian belief of the creation of man, or the creation story . . . the Bible states that God created man, in the form of a man.

Just wondering your thoughts on this . . .
First off, I am a Christian and I do believe in ID and that humans are created in the image of God/Jesus Christ.

Next, I know you're asking for my opinions on how ID and evolution can possibly work together, but I guess my honest answer is this: you're question illustrates one of the major misconceptions about the Christian creation story. Our story, as it has been translated out of Hebrew into various other languages that include inferences based on Greco-Roman/Western culture now reflects a creation story based on actions and events. The way the story was originally written and intended to be interpreted was simply a narative that illustrates the nature of relationships - the nature of the relationship between God and humanity and the nature of the relationships between two human beings (not neven necessarily man and woman). The Hebrew word we now read as "Adam" actually refers to the couple as a whole - two humans in relation to each other - NOT a single male human being. That's just one example of how our Greek culture has fostered unfortunate misinterpretations of the original story. The point is not HOW God created humans, but simply that He did.

I don't really have much of an opinion on human evolution because it's not something I've studied like I study theology and it's not something I'm particularly interested in. Regardless of the extent that science can prove human evolution, my opinions of the supreme authority and transcendence of God won't change. I'd rather spend my time studying the original Hebrew texts (which I have to do through various courses at my college since I can't read Hebrew for myself) than debate the scientific credibility of human evolution. The creation story is not science and it's not a timeline...for all I know or care, it may not even be real. It may be a myth like most of the other OT narratives, but a "myth" implies the existence of some truth regardless of the chronology and characters in the story are true. The Genesis creation story's purpose is to define the nature of relationships, period. It was not intended to prove this or that or deny this or that or have any relevance to any field of science. The study of Christian ID and the Genesis creation story belongs in the field of theology, not science.
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Old 01-05-2006, 11:36 PM   #145
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
First off, I am a Christian and I do believe in ID and that humans are created in the image of God/Jesus Christ.
Out of curiosity, do you really believe in "intelligent design" or are your beliefs closer to "evolutionary creationism"/"theistic evolution"? Both believe in a God-created evolution. The problem with ID, specifically, is that it modifies existing scientific theory to arbitarily conform to its pre-existing ideology against natural selection, whereas the latter accepts secular scientific theory completely, attributing it to God.

That's kind of why this ID stuff blindsided me a couple years back. I really thought that this issue had been divided only between the literal creationists and the "evolutionary creationists." And then this ID kind of pops out of nowhere.

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Old 01-05-2006, 11:43 PM   #146
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Originally posted by melon


Out of curiosity, do you really believe in "intelligent design" or are your beliefs closer to "evolutionary creationism"/"theistic evolution"? Both believe in a God-created evolution. The problem with ID, specifically, is that it modifies existing scientific theory to arbitarily conform to its pre-existing ideology against natural selection, whereas the latter accepts secular scientific theory completely, attributing it to God.

I definitely believe in the evolution of plants and animals (God-willed). Like I said, human evolution is where I get stuck. I believe that God created humans in His image, so humans are different from all other living things, which were not created in the image of God. I suppose if human evolution to some extent was/is God-willed, I have no problem accepting it. I don't know if I can accept that humans came from apes, though, because apes were not created in the image of God. But, I'm not the type of person that takes the Bible so literally I believe everything was created in 7 "regular" days. So maybe since animals were created first, God's "creation" of humanity was allowing/willing the evolution of humans from apes. I wish I could say more confidently, but like I said, it's not something I believe there is a definite answer to in the Christian creation story and it's not the purpose of the story so I spend much more time trying to correctly exegete the original text. I hope that answers your question?

ETA: I also wanted to say that the Hebrew word for "creation" with God as the creator doesn't necessarily imply the method of creation, so like I said before, maybe God's creation of humanity was simply allowing humans to evolve from apes into something other than an ape, something in the image of God. Also, the passage about humans being created from dust does not mean that God created humans with his "hands", so to speak, from earth or some materials. The Hebrew word there interpreted as "dust" does not refer to actual dust, but "that which is transient". Just some food for thought I guess.
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Old 01-05-2006, 11:50 PM   #147
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I don't know if I can accept that humans came from apes, though, because apes were not created in the image of God.
Perhaps I take a more liberal take on this question, but I believe that God looks like everything. How do we know what God looks like? Everything is in His image, and everything is beautiful.

That's not too much of a logical stretch, as Vedic Hinduism (which predates Judeo-Christianity historically) believes that the creator deity, Brahman, is literally everything--including both existence and non-existence.

As such, I'm not offended to belong to such an illustrious line of creation. But that's my view.

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I hope that answers your question?
It does. Thanks for your honest answer.

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Old 01-06-2006, 12:00 AM   #148
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Perhaps I take a more liberal take on this question, but I believe that God looks like everything. How do we know what God looks like? Everything is in His image, and everything is beautiful.

That's not too much of a logical stretch, as Vedic Hinduism (which predates Judeo-Christianity historically) believes that the creator deity, Brahman, is literally everything--including both existence and non-existence.

As such, I'm not offended to belong to such an illustrious line of creation. But that's my view.

That is a very nice way of looking at it. I suppose I struggle with that because I've spent 21 years being taught from Christian Reform perspective, which places a LOT of emphasis on the cultural mandate in Genesis (God defining the nature of the relationship between humanity and the rest of the creation - humans have dominion but are to use the creation to glorify God...to put it very simply). Believing that everything is created in the image of God, not just humans, pretty much destroys the cultural mandate and the Christian Reformed worldview of Creation-Fall-Redemption, but it's a new way of looking at it and I'll keep than in mind next time we study the text...
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:42 AM   #149
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
That is a very nice way of looking at it. I suppose I struggle with that because I've spent 21 years being taught from Christian Reform perspective, which places a LOT of emphasis on the cultural mandate in Genesis (God defining the nature of the relationship between humanity and the rest of the creation - humans have dominion but are to use the creation to glorify God...to put it very simply). Believing that everything is created in the image of God, not just humans, pretty much destroys the cultural mandate and the Christian Reformed worldview of Creation-Fall-Redemption, but it's a new way of looking at it and I'll keep than in mind next time we study the text...
Again, just my view, but I believe that too much of the traditional definition of "God" revolves around human definition of imperialism. Indeed, even the title, "Lord," in the Bible comes from medieval feudalism, not the original Hebrew or Greek.

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Old 01-06-2006, 09:47 AM   #150
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Because life on other planets would be entirely consistent with a "life emerged through natural processes" argument. I do not think that the existence of aliens has been scientifically proven, but I do think that their existence could be proved by evidence.
"Could be proven by evidence?" COULD??
Yet, you have no problem whatsoever believing in their existance before it's even PROVEN.
Not very "scientific."
Sort of contradicts why you have such a difficult time believing in God. Just because tangible evidence that God exists hasn't been found doesn't mean that He doesn't. Furthermore, again, the very essence of God and of Christianity itself is one of FAITH. God hasn't the intention to PROVE His own existence to anyone. That's the whole point of "faith."

But more about 'proof' in the scientific world . . .
Are you also trying to say that EVERYTHING that is readily accepted in the scientific community can be traced back to irrefutable proof? Absolutely NOT!

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You are the one that raised the issue of God. The mere fact that you bring God and a supernatural being into the discussion shows that what you think to be intelligent design is not science.
I brought God into the discussion in response to your using the word "designer."
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