who does bush think he is?

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Zoomerang96

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this bullshit he's spewing over the networks tonite is exactly the same bullshit he's been spouting for years.

it's OLD NEWS.

and he keeps tying iraq to 9/11...

how many people truly believe that anymore?

meanwhile, my country will accept gay marriage today.

and our conservatives think OUR leader is evil...
 
omg.

he 7ust called this the third world war.

did he really 7ust say that?!

for real?

did i hear that wrong??
 
Actually, apparently some of the neo-cons call the War on Terror the Fourth World War - the Cold War being the third.
 
No quick withdrawl from Bush.

A headline somewhere no doubt.
 
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My friend is convinced that Bush is cleaning up after the Clinton administration and that Clinton was responsible for the whole 9/11.
I don't understand, I see no evidence of that.
Does anyone else?
 
I see that the Clinton administration was offered Bin Ladens head on a platter by the Sudanese regime so that they could get off the state sponsered terrorism list but denied the offer after Reno consulted with DOJ lawyers and determined that there would not be enough evidence to convict him. I see the treatment of terrorism as a strictly criminal justice issue under the Clinton administration coupled with the lobbing of a few cruise misiles at pharmacutical factories to have been too small a response. The gradual escalation of attacks through the 1990's from the (thankfully) small kills from the WTC bombing in 1993 that had been designed to kill tens of thousands possibly over a hundred thousands, the African embassy bombings, the USS Cole. The foiled plots like Bojinka. Not enough was done about it in the 1990's, the threat could not have been fully realised or the political support for a response managed. It is a case of could have, would have and should have.
 
Wanderer, you are smart enough to realize that if the 9/11 attacks had not occurred, the US would continue to treat terrorism in the same manner. Also, the Clinton administration spent most of its time defending itself against the Lewinsky affair and being accused of "wagging the dog" tactics whenever it addressed other issues as a distraction ploy. Could the Clinton administration have done more, sure, but the political environment was different then as opposed to today.
 
Exactly. If 9/11 happened during Clinton days, a lot would have changed. If 9/11 hadn't happened, nothing would have changed.

The terrorism threats has been going on a long time. But who is really to blame? Clinton? Bush? Bush sr?
 
xtal said:
Exactly. If 9/11 happened during Clinton days, a lot would have changed. If 9/11 hadn't happened, nothing would have changed.

The terrorism threats has been going on a long time. But who is really to blame? Clinton? Bush? Bush sr?

How about we blame who really deserves the blame fro terrorism:

The terrorists
 
Well all I hear is squabbling from Republicans that it's Clinton's fault.
And then the Democrats quip back that Clinton did a good job and that he was too busy covering his ass over a lame sex scandal that was just a waste of time and money and a lame way of Republicans trying to impeach Clinton.

Does anyone listen to the terrorists anyway? What do they want? What are they asking for? Does anyone know that?
 
I think that they make themselves abundantly clear.

They are motivated by ideology. They see the primacy of Allah over the world and the importance of man to obey scripture.

They think that the only way to maintain pure Islamic values is through reversion to a way of life more in accordance too 7th Century Arabia. Modernity is against God to these individuals. Democracy and liberty and political systems invented by man that place the individual ahead of God, these systems are not compatible with their belief that all must submit too God.

Now this belief system does not infer terrorism, there can be peaceful fundamentalists who live their own lives strictly according to scripture but that is not how these particular groups operate. They extend the religious into a political system, which is Islamism. By building a system built up on literalism and rejection of un-Islamic concepts and material goods man is living the right way. A relatively decent example of such a system is Afghanistan under the Taliban, once siezing control after a civil war they were able to govern the country the way that they (the ruling class of theocrats) desired; purging of outside influence like television, enforcing modesty upon women, destroying idols such as the Bamiyan Buddha's, outlawing music and sports. They also took to refining the legal system, bringing back the amputations, stonings and public executions for common crimes like theft, adultery and apostacy.

Okay so now they enforce their glorious Islamist paridise on a country ravaged by war that is ripe for the picking by a cadre of totalitarians, all fine and good since it is restricted to a single country. Well here is where there terrorists come in.

Al Qaeda, Jeemah Islamya, Hamas, MILF etc. they are all Islamist groups that employ terrorism to achieve their ends, now it is not particularly surprising that they are all from areas of war and civil strife (with the exception of Al Qaeda which is considered an international group but is such a broad brush it covers an entire ideology ~ it is inconcequential if Osama bin Laden is alive or dead because his past actions inspire others to their own, the entire ideology of taking a war to the percieved "opressors of Islam" and striking them into submission until their political system can be established and expand can be a very broad thing and it encompasses many groups that are connected by individuals - like a Jihad version of the Kevin Bacon game - but without a direct operational heirachy plotting and planning every last attack and its details) ~ that is where they can tap the most popular support and develop a base of operations. These groups will violently fight their enemies and the civilian populations of their enemies by any means neccessary; we all know the story we see it every day on the news, beheadings, suicide bombers, "gunmen" - but on the flipside they also start to establish government (on various levels), and these governments are built on the same Islamist ideology (but more often than not to a much lesser degree than the Taliban). Now the nationalist movements with a quasi-Islamist component to them are nasty situations and that is more tied up with domestic conflicts and settling them, with these I think that peoples own personal ideas influence how they feel about them, for instance Hamas is being given legitimacy by European governments who are begining to engage them for negotiaton; some may see that as a positive, I do not because Hamas as a movement is built on two things; firstly the 'liberation' of 'Palestine', now when Hamas talks about Palestine they do not mean the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem ~ they mean everything from Jordan to the Mediteranian ~ in their own words "Driving the Jews into the Sea", their own propaganda proudly boasts about killing Israeli civilians ~ justify attacks against Pregnant women on the basis that an unborn child is a future soldier, introduce selective views of their holy texts to justify their large scale plans of ethnic cleansing (which are fantasy by their means but serious in their minds). But secondly they are Islamist; I think that their charter lays out pretty clearly their desire when it comes to governance and position in the world.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [a religious endowment, as delineated by Islamic law] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion', and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

"Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"'The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.' (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)."

"Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."
(http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)

Now they are a few quotes; read the whole thing to get context please, but it may give a bit of insight into their motivations, a purely Islamic state existing in "Palestine". So it is an Islamist Nationalist movement with rooted goals. Now Al Qaeda which does derive it's ideology from a different tradition of thought is not so much dedicated to pure Islamic states in the Middle East exclusively (replacing the corrupt secular dictators, the stalwarts of failed Pan-Arab Nationalism and the corrupt and "un-Islamic" regimes propped up by oil and America in the Gulf). They map their plans onto a global scale and they believe with full conviction and aspiration that one day in the future the entire world will live under Islamist governance, a truly global Ummah (think of an Islamic Christendom). Now that is a long term goal, and as such the groups set incremental goals; so start at square 1 to restore the Islamic world to it's former glory, the way they figure that can be done is by returning to the ways of the past and establishing a powerful unified nation; and where can such an entity be forged? the Middle East; so if they go about causing trouble for US client states and their leaders, subverting unpopular dictators and setting the seeds of revolution or destabalising the regimes they may be able to get into power either through coups, popular revolutions or sparking civil wars from which a powerful and unified Islamist (remember political ideology) group may emerge. If the right regimes are toppled then the balance of power may favour them, enabling a sort of domino effect. The end product of their supposed revolutions would be the creation of a united set of Islamist nations; a pan-Islamic superstate. Now different groups in different regions do aspire for such a creation; JI in Indonesia is one, it is a SE Asian terror group, their long term/big picture goal is the formation of a state stretching from Malaysia too Mindanao. The idea of creating an Islamist superpower also goes to the ressurection of the Caliphate; the leadership system that Al Qaeda and related groups see was the greatest workable system of Islamic governance. Once reestablished and entrenched the Caliphate may extend furthur than the past and all of humanity may finally get to know the feeling of living under Islamist governance with strict sharia law. A united humanity existing to revere God and live in the 'right' way. Sort of makes me glad that they probably will never achieve their ends ~ a world without science, art, free thought and discovery, sport, crushing of the individual, a homogenous mass of subjegated beings covering the planet without individual aspiration. The logical progression of what the very hardcore Islamist system that "Al Qaeda" advocates on a global level; those guys make Khomeni look moderate.

Long story short if you want to understand Islamism (which is bigger than 'Al Qaeda', the idea of a centralised command and control structure for this ideology would seem to be a mistake from what I have read)

I am sure that people have read their own books on the organisations and I am sure that they do give an overview; some good and some bad; I think that Daniel Pipes writings are usefull reading, but of course read other books and see other media to get a fuller picture.

I am just brushing over my understanding in a rapid and haphazard manner, but the point is that these groups and the motivation for their violence is not rooted in any single injustice or correctable ill in the world. It is an entire worldview that draws support from certain injustices and manipulates passions about them too it's own end (and yes Iraq probably does drive some support for Islamism among certain groups of Muslims ~ but no more than the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia all through the 1990's, the massacring of Muslims in the Balkans, the Palestinians and their 60 year refugees, Islamophobia etc. ~ it is a symptom of the shithouse regimes of the region, the lack of any real peaceful avenues of political expression against dictatorial regimes, a free and democratic Iraq would in the long term help the region immensely and will do more good in marginalising Islamists from the mainstream populations than any number of reactive steps, piss weak concessions of western guilt or sitting from affar politely asking the dictators too introduce their own democratic reforms as they see fit in exchange for trade deals; the change comes from the people, they have been kept down for far too long and when it comes it would be better for all if it supported the emergence free nations that can engage with the rest of the world with trade, international cooperation and progression rather than the retrograde shackles of Islamism that would be severely detrimental too world peace and the cause of individual human liberty abroad.

I make it clear that in my mind the 'fault' of 9/11 does not rest on any one administration or individual. Mistakes were made before hand, problems that can still happen and cannot be rectified short of becoming a police state and others that just havent been done because there wasn't enough money or enough motivation. "Evil-dooers", "violent extremists", "freedom-haters", "hate us for who we are" ~ these are all labels that dance around the enemy; radical Islamism. By deliberately using such vague terminology and declaring a "War on Terror" I fear that the Bush administration has made long term resistence to the threat more dificult, how the hell are people supposed to give long term (years leading into decades) of support for a war against a phantom enemy that their leaders will not identify out of politeness. Properly defining the problem; seperating it from Islam the religion; marginalising it - that is by far the best way to combat anti-Islamic sentiment, rather than the ever so vague definitions that make people think that "Islam is the enemy". The latest moves to recast the fight as a war against "violent extremists" is one more example of this shabby, shabby communication to the public and the world at large.

I would also like too recomend 'Inside Al Qaeda' by Rohan Gunaratna ~ it is a really great reference book.
 
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ouizy said:
he is such a dum bass

RC-736__Large_Mouth_Bass.jpg
 
Until after 9/11, the Bush Administration was solely concerned with building a missile shield, so frankly, blaming Clinton for terrorism is short-sighted, at best. Our government, for years, was only looking at high-tech warfare concerns, and terrorism, frankly, was on nobody's radar.

Although if you pay attention to Richard Clarke, he makes it sound as if the Clinton Administration did pay attention to terrorism, and the entire "War on Terror" was architected by Clarke during the dying days of that administration. All I know is that Bush and the GOP cannot pin this one on Clinton, because you can tell that Bush was not interested in solving this issue until *after* it happened. He was caught off-guard just as much as the rest of us.

Melon
 
Zoomerang96 said:
this bullshit he's spewing over the networks tonite is exactly the same bullshit he's been spouting for years.

it's OLD NEWS.

and he keeps tying iraq to 9/11...

how many people truly believe that anymore?


:bow:
 
xtal said:
Exactly. If 9/11 happened during Clinton days, a lot would have changed. If 9/11 hadn't happened, nothing would have changed.

The terrorism threats has been going on a long time. But who is really to blame? Clinton? Bush? Bush sr?

If the FBI, CIA, and other various agencies had communicated and cooperated together, then 9/11 may have been prevented. I don't know who is to blame for these agencies not communicating. But Bush did get many warning signals from the CIA that a terrorist attack was very probable.
 
VKX, i'm right there with you. Had the election be held 6 months or maybe even fewer then 6 months later, then Bush definitely wouldn't have won. We Americans as a whole are very slow in understanding that the Iraq war was a mistake, let alone full of lies. When we went into Iraq, the war approval was quite high, then it became 50/50, and now it is 40%. I guarantee you it will get sink lower as time passes by.
 
Infinitum98 said:
VKX, i'm right there with you. Had the election be held 6 months or maybe even fewer then 6 months later, then Bush definitely wouldn't have won. We Americans as a whole are very slow in understanding that the Iraq war was a mistake, let alone full of lies. When we went into Iraq, the war approval was quite high, then it became 50/50, and now it is 40%. I guarantee you it will get sink lower as time passes by.

This is false because the polls have often fluctuated depending on the casualty levels and other events in Iraq. Aproval for the war was above 50% in February and was actually higher than it was prior to the November election.

The terrorist in Iraq realize that one of the centers of gravity in the conflict is American public opinion, so naturally, their actions are carefully conducted so as to maximize the level of carnage that gets reported in the media and is then hopefully for them produces more negative attitudes among the US public pushing for a pull out.

Also, the polls are not entirely accurate, as the November election demonstrates. Bush had some low aproval numbers prior to the election, yet won by the first majority for an elected president since 1988.
 
STING2 said:

Bush had some low aproval numbers prior to the election, yet won by the first majority for an elected president since 1988.

You always seem to have to remind us of this fact, so let me continue to remind you how he got there in the first place.
 
STING2 said:


This is false because the polls have often fluctuated depending on the casualty levels and other events in Iraq. Aproval for the war was above 50% in February and was actually higher than it was prior to the November election.

The terrorist in Iraq realize that one of the centers of gravity in the conflict is American public opinion, so naturally, their actions are carefully conducted so as to maximize the level of carnage that gets reported in the media and is then hopefully for them produces more negative attitudes among the US public pushing for a pull out.

Also, the polls are not entirely accurate, as the November election demonstrates. Bush had some low aproval numbers prior to the election, yet won by the first majority for an elected president since 1988.

Yes the polls fluctuate, but overall the approval rating has been on a downhill ever since we decided to go into Iraq in the first place.

How do you know that the terrorists do the bombings in way to get media attention? It seems like there is a bombing every day in the major cities. I don't think that they care what the American public thinks, they keep bombing because they radically oppose the situation. And it is not only the American troops they are bombing, they are also bombing other troops (including Iraqi troops) and the Iraqi police force. So clearly, their intention is not cause the American public to change their minds on Iraq, their intention is to kill anybody of military or police authority occupying Iraq.

The 2004 election being the first majority win since 1988 doesn't mean much. In both the 1992 and 1996, there was an unusually strong 3rd party candidate, Ross Perot, which made it next to impossible to win by a majority. The 3rd party candidate for the last election, Ralph Nader, wasn't that strong at all, he received 0.4% of the vote. As opposed to Ross Perot who received 19% of the vote in 1992 and 8% in 1996. Also Ralph Nader was quite strong in 2000, receiving 2.7% of the popular vote. So it was quite difficult to get a majority in 1992, 1996, or 2000.
 
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Infinitum98 said:


Yes the polls fluctuate, but overall the approval rating has been on a downhill ever since we decided to go into Iraq in the first place.

How do you know that the terrorists do the bombings in way to get media attention? It seems like there is a bombing every day in the major cities. I don't think that they care what the American public thinks, they keep bombing because they radically oppose the situation. And it is not only the American troops they are bombing, they are also bombing other troops (including Iraqi troops) and the Iraqi police force. So clearly, their intention is not cause the American public to change their minds on Iraq, their intention is to kill anybody of military or police authority occupying Iraq.

The 2004 election being the first majority win since 1988 doesn't mean much. In both the 1992 and 1996, there was an unusually strong 3rd party candidate, Ross Perot, which made it next to impossible to win by a majority. The 3rd party candidate for the last election, Ralph Nader, wasn't that strong at all, he received 0.4% of the vote. As opposed to Ross Perot who received 19% of the vote in 1992 and 8% in 1996. Also Ralph Nader was quite strong in 2000, receiving 2.7% of the popular vote. So it was quite difficult to get a majority in 1992, 1996, or 2000.

The easiest way for the terrorist in Iraq to further achieve their goals is to force the coalition forces to leave. Just look at all the kidnappings of foreigners and the threats to kill them if country x would not withdraw their troops! Why do you think so many of these executions were video taped?

The goal of any insurgency is to try and trick the enemy into believing that victory is impossible. This is what the North Vietnamese and Vietcong succeeded in doing to a certain degree in the Vietnam War. Bin Ladin expressed the fact in one of his few interviews given to western media that he saw the weakness of the United States in Somalia, when the United States pulled out of the country 6 months after 18 US Rangers were killed and one of the bodies was dragged through the street in an operation partly planned and supported by Al Quada. Saddam before the first Gulf War would often say that the United States was weak because they retreated from a war where they lost 60,000 troops, but that was the number he sometimes would loose in a single battle against the Iranians. The perception is out there that the United States will run from the fight if one can inflict enough losses to damage public opinion back home. Clearly one of the goals of terrorism, is to terrorize populations or whole countries into making choices they would not make under different conditions or circumstances.

The third party candidacy of Ross Perot is unfortunately more of a sign of the percieved weakness of the candidates by the voting public. There were plenty of other candidates running in both the 2000 and 2004 election as well. It is significant that Bush has received the first majority in an election since 1988.

If the polling for Iraq was going all down hill, Bush would never have been re-elected as President, let alone by a majority. The most significant sign of public opinion about the war in Iraq was the 2004 election! 120 million voters as opposed to polls with questionable methods and under 1,000 people involved.
 
phanan said:


You always seem to have to remind us of this fact, so let me continue to remind you how he got there in the first place.

If your refering to the 2000 election, Bush won that as well no matter what type of spin Democrats like to put on it. The results of the 2004 election show that America clearly agree's!
 
STING2 said:


The third party candidacy of Ross Perot is unfortunately more of a sign of the percieved weakness of the candidates by the voting public. There were plenty of other candidates running in both the 2000 and 2004 election as well. It is significant that Bush has received the first majority in an election since 1988.

If the polling for Iraq was going all down hill, Bush would never have been re-elected as President, let alone by a majority. The most significant sign of public opinion about the war in Iraq was the 2004 election! 120 million voters as opposed to polls with questionable methods and under 1,000 people involved.

Just because more people voted for the 3rd party in '92 and '96, it doesn't mean that the other candidates were weak. It means that the 3rd party candidate was very strong. Ross Perot could have even gotten many more votes in '92 had he not pulled out of the race and then re-entered such a short time before the election. Yea I know there were plenty of other candidates in '00 and '04, but that doesn't mean they were strong.

The '04 election was not and should not have been based purely on the war in Iraq. There were many other issues besides Iraq. I absolutely don't support the war but I favored Bush to win for my own reasons. So you cannot say that the 2004 election was a significant sign of public opinion on the war in Iraq. In fact, there were polls before the election that showed that the topic that was most important to people was the economy.
 
STING2 said:


The easiest way for the terrorist in Iraq to further achieve their goals is to force the coalition forces to leave. Just look at all the kidnappings of foreigners and the threats to kill them if country x would not withdraw their troops! Why do you think so many of these executions were video taped?

The goal of any insurgency is to try and trick the enemy into believing that victory is impossible. This is what the North Vietnamese and Vietcong succeeded in doing to a certain degree in the Vietnam War. Bin Ladin expressed the fact in one of his few interviews given to western media that he saw the weakness of the United States in Somalia, when the United States pulled out of the country 6 months after 18 US Rangers were killed and one of the bodies was dragged through the street in an operation partly planned and supported by Al Quada. Saddam before the first Gulf War would often say that the United States was weak because they retreated from a war where they lost 60,000 troops, but that was the number he sometimes would loose in a single battle against the Iranians. The perception is out there that the United States will run from the fight if one can inflict enough losses to damage public opinion back home. Clearly one of the goals of terrorism, is to terrorize populations or whole countries into making choices they would not make under different conditions or circumstances.


When I said that war approval has declined ever since we went into Iraq, I was not talking about polls regarding the pulling of troops from Iraq. I was talking about polls regarding whether people favor the war or not. The % of people favoring the war has been on a steady decline ever since we went into Iraq.

As to whether we should pull the troops or not, even though I am 120% anti-Iraq War, I still don't know how I feel about U.S. soldiers in Iraq.

On the one hand, I think we should pull out because our soldiers are dying everyday and the very fact that we are there may be causing radical groups to plan attacks on our country.

On the other hand, I think we should stay in because it is a "you break it, you fix it" type of situation in Iraq.

:huh:
 
STING2 said:


If your refering to the 2000 election, Bush won that as well no matter what type of spin Democrats like to put on it. The results of the 2004 election show that America clearly agree's!

The truth is that he lost the popular vote in that election, yet still won the electoral vote - the first time that had happened in over 100 years!

The majority of Americans didn't want him in the White House in the first place. There's certainly no spin being put on that.
 
phanan said:


The truth is that he lost the popular vote in that election, yet still won the electoral vote - the first time that had happened in over 100 years!

The majority of Americans didn't want him in the White House in the first place. There's certainly no spin being put on that.

I'm sure you'll note that Al Gore did not get a majority of the vote in 2000. In addition, a majority of Americans did not want Bill Clinton to be elected President in 1992 or 1996.

After 4 years of the Bush administration, the American people gave George Bush the first majority victory by a President since 1988. The majority of the Americans consider Democratic criticisms of the 2000 election to be irrelevant with such a vote in 2004.
 
Infinitum98 said:


Just because more people voted for the 3rd party in '92 and '96, it doesn't mean that the other candidates were weak. It means that the 3rd party candidate was very strong. Ross Perot could have even gotten many more votes in '92 had he not pulled out of the race and then re-entered such a short time before the election. Yea I know there were plenty of other candidates in '00 and '04, but that doesn't mean they were strong.

The '04 election was not and should not have been based purely on the war in Iraq. There were many other issues besides Iraq. I absolutely don't support the war but I favored Bush to win for my own reasons. So you cannot say that the 2004 election was a significant sign of public opinion on the war in Iraq. In fact, there were polls before the election that showed that the topic that was most important to people was the economy.

3rd Party candidates that seriously impact elections in the United States two party systems usually do so because of a percieved weakness of the candidates the two parties have nominated. Strong votes for 3rd Party candidates are usually seen as protest votes and not really a sincere vote for the the third party candidate.

There is simply no other issue as important as a war which is why this was the #1 issue in the campaign. No other issue impacts the country more than war, nothing even comes close. The re-election of George W. Bush clearly showed that the American people support the war in Iraq as well as George Bush's handling of it. 120 million people voted, and that would dwarf any poll with a few hundred people conducted with questionable methods.
 
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