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Old 02-17-2005, 07:17 PM   #121
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Re: Re: Which one are you ?

Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino




Are you pro-choice 1 week before the delivery date ?




Are you pro-life in case of incest/rape by HIV-infected person ?

these are the extreems that absolutist use to make their irrational arguments
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:33 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klink
I think the responses so far ignore the social implications of this debate, which I think have been the ultimate determining factor...at least politically. Before I can agree to believe that abortion should be illegal, I would like to know what business the government has in telling a woman what to do with her body, which the fetus relies on for survival?
With all due respect, a democracy is governed by the people. When the public outcry for a vicious act to take place is as big as it is, we have to see what the big deal is. Many feel that it is morally wrong to kill an unborn, as it is morally wrong to kill a newborn. You may disagree with me on your definition of a "human", but my good friend dictionary.com (not known for any political bias) would define "human" as this:

A member of the genus Homo and especially of the species H. sapiens.
A person: the extraordinary humans who explored Antarctica.

Of, relating to, or characteristic of humans: the course of human events; the human race.
Having or showing those positive aspects of nature and character regarded as distinguishing humans from other animals: an act of human kindness.
Subject to or indicative of the weaknesses, imperfections, and fragility associated with humans: a mistake that shows he's only human; human frailty.
Having the form of a human.
Made up of humans: formed a human bridge across the ice.

Feel free to interpret that however you want...

Quote:
Originally posted by Klink
Most importantly, I think it's important to point out that the scientific "evidence" displayed so far is not really evidence for either side at all. What is being used as "evidence" are the interpretations about what these results mean and how we should react as a society. There no ultimate logic or reason that can successfully bridge the gap between the moral absolutism of "pro-life" and the scientific evidence presented. It's all in how one interprets (a) the evidence and arguments and (b) how we as a community feel we should react to this interpretation. To me the reliance on personal interpretation and emotion suggests that moral absolutism is probably a disposable position. This debate has been reduced to a matter of one's interpretation of the means and goals of society. That being the case HERE, what grounds do we have for telling someone what they can do HERE? The absence of something self-evident in this debate is exactly why abortion cannot be considered anything but just that...a matter of opinion - choice.
Even I feel that Hillary Clinton - a "pro-choicer", is helping bridge the gap. She acknowledges that it's a tragic choice that is made by many women, and it benefits both sides of the debate to provide contraceptives for the sexually active who would choose abortion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Klink
To conclude, I'd like to throw in two more criticisms of the "pro-life" argument. One, they contain certain theistic assumptions, the most obvious of which pertains to the sacred nature of human life, which certainly lacks jusitifcation. It also contains the anthropocentric assumption that human life is superior to other life forms that we kill which, again, no matter what you believe, is not justified.
This is NOT a theological issue. There are many who have no interest in believing in a higher power, or being religious folks, who object to abortion. Abortion deprives a child of life, anyway you slice it. What form of life is superior to human life?

Quote:
Originally posted by Klink
A restriction on freedom requires sound logic, at the very least. Unless there is some imperative argument requiring abortion to be treated as murder (and i cannot think of one), then I'm not sure there's an imperative to restirct a woman's right to exercise her freedom...especially over her own body. Does the government have the right to dictate what happens in the womb? I'm not in favour, given the arguments so far.
An unborn child is not a body part. It has its own genetic makeup, and abortion restricts that child from freedom. Honestly, it's a permanant solution to a temporary problem, and I discourage the practice, and I would rather protect the innocent rather than support the most acceptable, yet vicious form of child abuse.

I'm not betting that I'm changing anybody's mind, but just as you have stated your opinion, I have stated mine.
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Old 02-18-2005, 03:46 AM   #123
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buddha said the way was the middle path...avoid extremes
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Old 02-18-2005, 07:32 AM   #124
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You know, it wasn't until we saw my little flea, now a healthy thriving 2 year old, that I in theory agreed that abortion was a viable option. It still is never viable. It is a horrible decision for almost any woman who makes it and I can still not quite come to terms with writing off any poor woman who makes that choice. I still think support anmd help in the decision and afterward is paramount. But now I dont think so much that it is not a human. It's your little baby in there on the ultrasound. In the shape of a peanut or bean, your little baby. Tiny little baby.

Perhaps more reason to offer nothing but support and compassion for any woman and man (as he watches on) who makes this heartbreaking decision.

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Old 02-18-2005, 07:51 AM   #125
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I am a man of extremes unfortunately...

And I would say PRO-CHOICE

And if all people in this world were like me...PRO-CHOICE would mean same as PRO-LIFE
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Old 02-18-2005, 12:44 PM   #126
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damn bush for banning late term abortions.
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Old 02-18-2005, 01:58 PM   #127
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Pro choice!!
REMEMBER: If aborting is murder, then jerking off is GENOCIDE!!
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:14 PM   #128
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^ very interesting point....
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Old 02-18-2005, 02:24 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pero
Pro choice!!
REMEMBER: If aborting is murder, then jerking off is GENOCIDE!!

I've heard this before..
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Old 02-18-2005, 09:10 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroDude
Pro- Life, which is why if I was an American I wouldn't vote for either major party, the pro- choice anti death penalty democrats and the pro life pro death penalty republicans, wow the contradictions would really make it hard for me to throw my lot in with either, murder is murder, I may seem ignorant to some, but human life is human life in my book, maybe if a pregnancy was terminated really and i mean really early I could live with it but only in the circumstances of rape or such, otherwise it's plain selfishness imo
Agree with much of this.

Unfortunately some of the rabid prolifers give off the impression that the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.

I'm prochoice this way. No limitations first trimester. Slight limitations second trimester. Society may have more of an interest in the third trimester.

We need to make adoption easier in this country and we must be willing to adopt the older child, the more challenged child. The problem in this country is not abortion, it is what we do to and with unwanted children.
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:03 AM   #131
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agreed with the above.

while there are some pro-life/anti-choice people who correctly understand abortion as a social failure, far too many (from what i can tell) are not pro-life but pro-birth.

are you willing to pay taxes to assist that mother who feels she cannot support the child? are you willing to have your property taxes raised so that child can go to good schools? are you willing to volunteer at your local Head Start so that child can be in a good environment while mom tries to find work? are you willing to pay taxes for full health care that includes superb pre-natal care?

or do you just want that woman punished for having sex?
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Old 02-19-2005, 07:32 AM   #132
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Pro-choice.
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Old 02-19-2005, 09:02 AM   #133
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Choice
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Old 02-19-2005, 11:46 AM   #134
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
are you willing to pay taxes to assist that mother who feels she cannot support the child? are you willing to have your property taxes raised so that child can go to good schools? are you willing to volunteer at your local Head Start so that child can be in a good environment while mom tries to find work? are you willing to pay taxes for full health care that includes superb pre-natal care?

or do you just want that woman punished for having sex?
Although Hillary is suggesting that we cover expenses for other people's sex lives with our tax dollars, I still back her on it because it's better than the alternative, which is doing nothing about it. Yes I would support higher taxes, but I want them spent wisely, to value every human being, born and unborn. We need more like Hillary (whether or not they are for/against legal abortion) to bridge the gap and bring the best of the two parties together to present applicable alternatives to this problem. I probably can't speak for every anti-abortioner out there, but I am willing to pay higher taxes in order to make a positive difference in our society. While the legality is a reality, it's time to make some major progress on the issue, and make it rare as possible.
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Old 02-19-2005, 12:01 PM   #135
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I'm pro-choice.
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