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Old 02-17-2005, 06:49 AM   #76
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Pro-choice.

If people don't want others to have an abortion put in place some seriously decent sex education, make contraception widely available, and most importantly of all - value the parents of this new child and make sure they have the necessary support mechanisms to cope with/look after their children. Don't tell people you can't have an abortion and then not support them!!!
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Old 02-17-2005, 08:10 AM   #77
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Generally, life.
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:11 AM   #78
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Both personally and politically, I am anti-abortion. I think it's possible to look after the life of both the mother and the child. If the mother has a maternal issue, it should be an exception. You can't force someone to give a birth that can't be given. If the mother did not consent - in the case of rape/incest, her pregnancy was not her responsibility. The child, because they should not be deprived of life, liberty, and prosperity.

However, I don't approve of abortion on demand. I think you can be compassionate for the woman without supporting what she is doing. One of my fiance's friends recently had one done, which is disappointing, but I don't hate her for it. What I can't be compassionate for is the act. Why should we be compassionate for apathy? Legalized abortion hasn't worked since 1973, 1.5 million innocent lives a year is far too many to waste. These children are supposed to be the future, and to think, you could be killing the person who could cure cancer.

I believe that legalized abortion has caused us to undermine our moral standards, and I also believe that since we made it legal, we have encouraged abortions to take place. As far as it being the government's business, if there is enough public outcry against it, we should be concerned about it. It is not a myth that many women come to regret their abortions. While raging feminists will tell you that abortion "increases your self-esteem", they are dismissed by any credible source.

If you want a real set of facts, here they are:

http://www.pscstark.com/pregnancyinf...tionfacts.html

Abortion Facts

Scientific and Medical Facts

Every human life begins at conception - "In biology and medicine, it is an accepted fact that the life of any individual organism reproducing by sexual reproduction begins at conception, or fertilization". (Dr. Micheline M. Matthews Roth, Principal Research Associate, Harvard Medical School).

The developing pre-born child is not part of the mother's body! The pre-born child is a separate living being with a separate genetic make-up and a separate blood system from the mother - "The individuality of the unborn baby is established at conception. It is genetically related to its parents, but it is also very different...the 23 chromosomes each parent contributes to the baby can be rearranged in 8,388,608 different ways to produce the 46 chromosome complement of the new individual. There are more than 8 million ways in which the baby might differ from his/her parents". (Dr. Hymie Gordon, Professor and Chairman, Department of Medical Genetics, Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN).

Abortion is a surgical procedure. Like all such procedures, abortion has certain associated risks. Abortion can result in:


Damaged cervix - may lead to bleeding, miscarriage, and/or premature births in later pregnancies.
Perforation of the uterus - results in internal bleeding, which may lead to death.
Pelvic inflammatory disease (PID) - infection leading to fever and infertility - common and serious complications reported in up to 30% of all cases.
Ectopic pregnancy (pregnancies outside the womb) - risk is double for women who have had one abortion, and up to four times for women with two or more previous abortions.
Breast cancer - women who abort a pregnancy during the first trimester may have twice the risk of developing breast cancer; the risk is higher in women who have had multiple abortions. (Abortion Industry Monitor).
Infertility.
Low birth weight babies/premature births in later pregnancies.
Infection and bleeding.
Potential death to the mother - between 1972 and 1980, 164 women died from legal abortion.
Abortion is the only medical/surgical procedure in which parental knowledge or consent for a minor is not required, it is also the only procedure in which the physician is not legally required to inform the patient of all possible risks and side effects.

Abortion - Psychological Facts

Abortion is identified by the American Psychiatric Association as a "psychosocial stressor." It is highly unlikely that a woman will be able to know before an abortion how she will deal emotionally with this "psychosocial stressor" after the abortion is over. Therefore, abortion carries with it certain risks to the mental health of women.

Many women have experienced "post-abortion trauma" and post-abortion depression" following their abortions. Some of the most common symptoms of these two syndromes are:

Guilt
Depression
Anger
Nightmares
Withdrawal
Regret and remorse
A sense of loss, grief, emptiness
Feelings of dehumanization/low self-esteem
Self-destructive behavior - drugs and alcohol
Preoccupation with "would be" due date of birth
Inability to forgive self and others
You may want to know - Abortion affects men as well as women.

Abortion diminishes the process of procreation, and the "bond" between a man and a woman.
Abortion alters one's value of life and may conflict with his moral and spiritual values.
Guilt, fear, anger, or anxiety from abortion may affect his ability to trust others.
Unresolved psychological effects from abortion may affect future relationships in the roles of husband and/or father.
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:16 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Potential death to the mother - between 1972 and 1980, 164 women died from legal abortion.
Of course, they don't mention the women who died from illegal abortions prior to 1972.

Like I said, I don't encourage abortion, and nor would I ever advise anyone to have one. However, like I said before, if 7% of women account for 50%+ of abortions, then there is a lot we can do to prevent these abortions in these 7% without making it overtly illegal.

The question, obviously, is whether the "pro-life" movement is serious about doing anything besides making political noise. As far as I see it, most of this "abortion debate" is more of a political power struggle than anything else.

Melon
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:19 AM   #80
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Choice - I think whether a mother wishes to go through the pain of child birth or undertake the responsibility of child rearing is her choice only. There are many things that could factor into her choice; poverty, necissity or fear for herself or child. I really think mandating child birth is a violent assault on a woman's body and a big-brother, inflexible, and simplistic response to a complex issue that requires perhaps the greatest contextual personalization and flexibility.

Jon
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:29 AM   #81
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Pro-Choice
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Old 02-17-2005, 09:40 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Of course, they don't mention the women who died from illegal abortions prior to 1972.
I'd like to know the stats as well if anyone can grab ahold of them.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
[B]Like I said, I don't encourage abortion, and nor would I ever advise anyone to have one. However, like I said before, if 7% of women account for 50%+ of abortions, then there is a lot we can do to prevent these abortions in these 7% without making it overtly illegal./B]
As far as handing that 7% (and the rest who might need them) contraceptives and proper education, I agree. If it prevents this permanent solution to a temporary problem from happening, I'm for it, even if it means higher taxes. I'm glad Hillary Clinton is doing what she's doing, I think she is reaching out to both sides of the debate by discussing the issue and preventing abortions from taking place. If more democrats were with her, I think a lot of right-wingers would have more respect for them.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
The question, obviously, is whether the "pro-life" movement is serious about doing anything besides making political noise. As far as I see it, most of this "abortion debate" is more of a political power struggle than anything else.
The anti-abortion movement (to be more universal) is bringing the issue up all the time, to make a difference in society. I think there are too many on the other side of the fence who either believe that abortion is empowering to women, or who couldn't care less. I was kind of surprised when you said that you think even tobacco should be banned. Eliminating any nonsense anyone might think of the idea, if we banned tobacco, the government would lawfully discourage its use, protect the public's well-being, and hopefully result in having a less self-destructive society.

In a lot of ways, I feel that way about abortion. I won't deny that there would be a flipside if banning abortion for consenting, maternally healthy women: angry feminists, social division, and some illegal abortions. I don't see myself as "making noise" over the issue, but abortion is a political divider for quite a few people. It seems the lesser the right wing politicans obsesses over the issue, the more progress we make on fighting the issue.
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:01 AM   #83
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Pro- Life, which is why if I was an American I wouldn't vote for either major party, the pro- choice anti death penalty democrats and the pro life pro death penalty republicans, wow the contradictions would really make it hard for me to throw my lot in with either, murder is murder, I may seem ignorant to some, but human life is human life in my book, maybe if a pregnancy was terminated really and i mean really early I could live with it but only in the circumstances of rape or such, otherwise it's plain selfishness imo
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:12 AM   #84
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Zero, according to my Business Law textbook, 2/3 of Americans support the death penalty. Clinton and Gore both supported it (democrats). The argument over legalized abortion is split in half. The majority oppose partial-birth, which is now illegal, while the majority also seem to support the first trimester abortion.
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:26 AM   #85
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^
Sorry for not having my facts 100 per cent right, but I still feel that way
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:29 AM   #86
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No it's cool, I just wanted to add a side comment.
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Old 02-17-2005, 10:32 AM   #87
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Pro-choice, and one million thumbs up to everyone for staying civil so far.
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:34 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
and to think, you could be killing the person who could cure cancer.
Yes, or you could also be killing the next Hitler. You don't know any of that kind of stuff before the birth takes place.

Angela
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:36 AM   #89
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and a condum would have the same effect

as would spilling your seed

give me a break
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Old 02-17-2005, 11:42 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe


If you want a real set of facts, here they are:


Abortion diminishes the process of procreation, and the "bond" between a man and a woman.
Abortion alters one's value of life and may conflict with his moral and spiritual values.
Guilt, fear, anger, or anxiety from abortion may affect his ability to trust others.
Unresolved psychological effects from abortion may affect future relationships in the roles of husband and/or father.

these last few comments strike me as value judgements rather than facts.

the "bond" between a man and a woman? waht does that mean?

how does it dminish the process of procreation?

alters one's value of life?

all this sounds like wishful thinking on the part of those who would make abortion illegal rather than anything approximating facts.
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