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Old 12-01-2003, 11:42 AM   #76
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bush has done plenty of consoling over his presidency... and so did clinton... and so has every american. saying how he hasn't gone to a soldier's funeral as a rebuttal of him going into baghdad for thanksgiving is frankly a little silly.

and as for his "not inviting all the press" that was in the article... well, that was done for safety reasons. yeah... fox news & bloomberg... two "conservitive" news agencies... whatever the hell that means... were invited along, and cnn and msnbc weren't. oh well. maybe it's because the president trust the agencies that were invited more than the ones who were not. it's not like the clintons didn't play favorites with the press. all politicians do.
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Old 12-01-2003, 09:15 PM   #77
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Originally posted by wolfwill23
I think it was very honorable for him to be there. He didn't have to risk his life on Thanksgiving to fly to Iraq and visit troops, but he did. This shows the character of this president. Good for him.

And I'm sure all the liberals will be upset by the visit but when history looks back, what will be remembered, the complaining liberals or President Bush visiting the troops on Thanksgiving Day in Iraq?
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:52 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
She was traveling on a FACT finding mission to make her case against the Bush administration, not to boost the moral of the troops. Its a little different.

Right, a fact finding mission. That sure won't help our soldiers any. Wouldn't want any uncomfortable facts lying around.

Feel better, dear.

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Old 12-02-2003, 11:55 AM   #79
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I always heard the "truth will set you free"
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Old 12-02-2003, 01:43 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23
The criminals are not the victims!!!!!!!!
Obviously you don't know a defense attorney. Anyway I don't like the assumption that b/c someone is arrested they are guilty but that is a different thread entirely.

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Right, a fact finding mission. That sure won't help our soldiers any. Wouldn't want any uncomfortable facts lying around.
Good point SD, good point....
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:26 PM   #81
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As far as facts and the truth go, its a bit uncomfortable for some that Saddam is no longer in power and he is not coming back. The leader primarily responsible for that is George Bush. The leader primarily responsible for the opportunity Iraqi's now have to live a better life is George Bush.

I have never heard of a nationbuilding operation where there were NO problems so it should not be to hard for Mrs. Clinton to find some problems to make politics out of.
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:51 PM   #82
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As far as facts and the truth go, its a bit uncomfortable for some that Saddam is no longer in power and he is not coming back. The leader primarily responsible for that is George Bush. The leader primarily responsible for the opportunity Iraqi's now have to live a better life is George Bush.

I have never heard of a nationbuilding operation where there were NO problems so it should not be to hard for Mrs. Clinton to find some problems to make politics out of.
Who exactly is it uncomfortable for knowing Saddam is no longer in power other than Saddam and his staff?

I thought we weren't doing nationbuilding?
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Old 12-02-2003, 09:35 PM   #83
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BonoVoxSupastar,

There are plenty of people besides Saddam and his staff that did not want to see Bush succeed and still do not.

"I thought we weren't doing nationbuilding?"

Its December 2003, the 2000 election campaign has been over for some time now. Bush is not the first person to run for office and do things contrary to what he said during the campaign. Someday, liberals and democrats will get over the 2000 election, maybe.
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Old 12-02-2003, 10:17 PM   #84
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BonoVoxSupastar,

There are plenty of people besides Saddam and his staff that did not want to see Bush succeed and still do not.
That is not what you said. You said "As far as facts and the truth go, its a bit uncomfortable for some that Saddam is no longer in power and he is not coming back." Those are two different things and I'm tired of you implying that anyone on the side that did not agree with this war of wanting Saddam to continue in his power. The end doesn't always justify the means.

Quote:
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Its December 2003, the 2000 election campaign has been over for some time now. Bush is not the first person to run for office and do things contrary to what he said during the campaign. Someday, liberals and democrats will get over the 2000 election, maybe. [/B]
So campaign promises, especially those as big as this, have expiration dates. That's good to know.
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Old 12-02-2003, 10:41 PM   #85
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BonoVoxSupastar,



It is fact that Saddam was removed from power. It is the truth that Bush as a leader played the biggest role in bringing that about. It is true and fact that people beyond Saddam and his staff
are not happy that he is gone and that Bush succeeded.

There is nothing inconsistent in what I said.

"I'm tired of you implying that anyone on the side that did not agree with this war of wanting Saddam to continue in his power"

Your the one that implied this, not me.

"So campaign promises, especially those as big as this, have expiration dates. That's good to know."


This is something that Bush said during the campaign, not a major promise. I was opposed to it then as I am now. I knew ahead of time that any such idea's would be chucked in the can, once he was in office.

I was also opposed to all of Bush's tax cuts at the time which were a bigger issue than the nation building statement. Given the recession though, I support some of them now.

Bush was not my #1 candidate at the time, McCain was.

But Bush in office has proved to be far better than I thought he would be and he has surrounded himself with perhaps the best Foreign Policy and National Security team this country has ever seen.

Although I may of had several disagreements with Bush on various policies during the 2000 election, I am glad I voted for him.
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Old 12-02-2003, 11:32 PM   #86
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Death Takes No Holiday in Iraq

As Bush and others enjoyed photo ops on Thanksgiving, the carnage went on.

Robert Scheer

December 2, 2003

First the president, and then Hillary Rodham Clinton, popped in to spend Thanksgiving with the troops at Baghdad airport competing, apparently, in the Olympics of photo ops.

What's the point? To prove that almost half a year after that last big "Mission Accomplished" photo op on the aircraft carrier, U.S. leaders can land in "liberated Iraq" without getting shot?

Unfortunately, the level of stealth and security provided to these showboating politicians can't be replicated for our troops or those of our allies who have sent their young men and women to this adventure: 104 coalition soldiers were killed in Iraq in November, up from 43 in October and more than were slain during the war's heaviest fighting in April.

In the days after the president's quickie holiday visit, seven Spanish agents, two Japanese diplomats, a Colombian contractor and two South Korean electricians were murdered and three more GIs were killed.

The administration, however, insists everything is, has been and will be just fine, thank you very much. On Saturday, a U.S. spokesperson stated that attacks on Americans were down. The very next day witnessed the fiercest attack on American convoys since the so-called end of major hostilities.

No Americans were killed this time, and the military claimed that all 54 Iraqis killed were Baathist militants. Journalists entering the battle-scarred town of Samarra on Monday found a much more complex picture, however, reporting that the use of random and overwhelming firepower killed a number of innocent civilians in addition to a much smaller number of Saddam Hussein's fedayeen loyalists than was originally reported by the military.

In any event, the anger and alienation felt by our onetime allies, the Sunnis, have reached a perhaps unprecedented height.

Those in Iraq opposing the U.S.-led occupation were described as "thugs and assassins" and "terrorists" by the president during his two-hour cameo at the U.S. garrison. This simplistic portrayal of the Iraqi opposition to the occupation, however, ignores the nationalist and religious impulses that have riven the region for centuries.

Ronald Reagan and the president's father relied on these same demon Sunni Baathists as a bulwark against Shiite Iran and Iraq's own Shiite majority. Now we point to the Shiites of southern Iraq as the most acquiescent to our occupation, but that will last only as long as the United States keeps favoring them over the Sunnis.

This is an inherently unstable situation, and White House policymakers are well aware of it which is why they have shown such extreme reluctance to transfer power to the Iraqi people.

The fact is, odds are very high that a fair national election in Iraq would lead to a Shiite takeover and a variant of the Iranian nationalist theocracy that's been in place since the mullahs overthrew the shah, a U.S.-supported dictator.

An Iraqi theocracy, of course, would little resemble the secular democracy promised by the neoconservatives who engineered this neocolonialist venture.

Having failed to find weapons of mass destruction or any of the other justifications for his preemptive war, President Bush is desperate to discover something even more elusive; a representative government in Iraq that will not embarrass or threaten U.S. interests. It won't happen.

Instead, the U.S. will sink deeper into this quagmire, alienating larger sections of the Iraqi population through ever more heavy-handed military responses to the guerrillas' effective hit-and-run tactics.

But don't for a moment accept the logic of the administration's apologists that there is no responsible alternative. There is: Turn this mess back over to the U.N. Security Council which was doing a constructive job of disarming and feeding Iraq before its role was abruptly ended by Bush's preemptive invasion.

Under U.N. leadership, it would be possible to marshal a truly international force, including U.S. troops, instead of the current token presence of allies.

The U.N.'s blue helmets have done it before in equally tough situations, and they would certainly be treated with far less suspicion by the Iraqi people than an occupying army and administration run by the world's sole superpower.

Of course, U.N. intervention would require the president to abandon his macho unilateralism and move to embrace his father's model of a new, multinational world order: a world of shared responsibility for keeping the peace, in which the hubris of no single nation is allowed to dominate.

Staying the course, Bush's inherited mantra, might strike a militant patriotic chord, but his last photo op will not be the promised one of cheering crowds welcoming our president. Instead, get ready for seen-before footage of enraged mobs chasing our helicopters out, or of Iraqi demonstrators being gunned down by frightened American 18-year-olds.

Like the swaggering, self-righteous Crusaders of old, we presume to be the savior of the souls of heathens while inevitably destroying our own.
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:41 AM   #87
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Yeah...but you are not talking about me specifically....if this last post was not thee biggest personal attack on me, then I do not know what to think. Come on out and call my a Facist....LOL



Now the next time you(and I am not talking about you specifically HIPHOP) want to imply that I am a Nationalist Facisist, whatever, please read the post or PM me.

Thanks.
easy easy. take a shower and cool down relax and have fun
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:48 AM   #88
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Hiphop-
I think your perspective would be different if you were raised in our country.
I think maybe mine and Dread's perspective would be different if we were raised in Euro.

I do know one thing we wouldnt be publicly 'mofoing' a world leader outside of our country.

DB9
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yes i think there are some differences. anyway, i am sure there are many Americans who see my perspective, just as a few Europeans who might see your perspective.

As to the mofoing: its a tradition here. we love it. anyway, this tradition is alive and well in the U.S. too, remember France and the French?
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Old 12-03-2003, 01:54 AM   #89
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HIPHOP,

Sorry if this thread does not fit the typical FYM model that says that Bush is the Anti-Christ.
Now you exaggerate. hes a killer, a cruel neo-conservative death row lover, and hell rot in hell for his actions. But to call him Anti-Christ would be a little.. exaggerated, no? Hes just a servant of the Anti-Christ.
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Old 12-03-2003, 02:44 AM   #90
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


easy easy. take a shower and cool down relax and have fun
Don't quote me or refer to my posts and I will. Apparently it is FUN for you to Insult me. I do not like it.No? so Relax, and bother someone else. There are many other posters.
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