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Old 09-05-2003, 12:46 PM   #16
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And I I'm sure it wouldn't have been a problem if Judge Moore merely had a copy of the Ten Commandments in his office. The real distinction here is that he placed a large one on federal property, which literally violates the protections for separation of church and state. But I agree with you, I could care less what Feinstein has in her office. Call me when she tries to place a several-ton statue of Vishnu in a courthouse.
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Old 09-05-2003, 12:49 PM   #17
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Now it is size and location. This cracks me up. I guess we never should talk about principles.
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Old 09-05-2003, 12:52 PM   #18
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It was always about location! If the Ten Commandments monument hadn't been where it was it wouldn't have been an issue at all.
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Old 09-05-2003, 12:56 PM   #19
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nbcrusader, I'm not really sure what the point is you're trying to make.

Moore was on a religious crusade, he kept giving out soundbites about the glory of his God and how the Constitution was based on that very principle, which it was not.

I thought she was Jewish and when I checked, she is. Therefore, I very much doubt that a Jew, to whom having one and only one God is supreme to all sees Vishnu as representative of a religious icon, nor is she arguing that Vishnu should be placed in a court house because the American constitution is based on the Hindu teaching of dharma. Come on.

It's an exotic piece of art to her and I'm pretty sure that if you asked her to tell you the principles of Hinduism, let's say we start with what samsara is and the B. Gita, she'd either have no clue or a very vague idea. She's not pushing anything here, whereas Moore was. Therein lies the distinction.
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


But you had no trouble equating the Ten Commandments monument with oppression??

She very well may have this statute in her publically funded office and I doubt anyone would make a peep. I bet there are plenty of Vishnu statues that are treated as works of art and therefor ignored.
Don't put words in my mouth I have never and will never equate the 10 Commandments with oppression.

You can have anything you want in your office. You can have a bible, koran, statue of buddah...hell you can have them all, in your office (publically funded or not), your home, your car. I don't care. But when you have a public government space that is set up to represent the people of the US then don't exclude any individual by putting up a monument that isn't included in their religious beliefs.

And I can almost guarantee you that you have art, objects, etc. in your very own house that are representative of another religion and not even know it.
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:07 PM   #21
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The point of my posts in this and Moore's thread is this: it appears that lawsuits filed regarding religious symbols as violations of "separation of church and state" are overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, reserved for Judeo-Christian symbols.

Moore was a vocal idiot, but other postings of the Ten Commandments (even those that have been posted for decades and are part of the decor) get the same treatment.

Vigilance to separate church from state is not done on a principled and evenhanded basis.
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:11 PM   #22
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Actually the monuments that have stood for decades have not received the same treatment. Courts have found that they have historical value and thus they have not been removed.
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:13 PM   #23
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
The point of my posts in this and Moore's thread is this: it appears that lawsuits filed regarding religious symbols as violations of "separation of church and state" are overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, reserved for Judeo-Christian symbols.

Moore was a vocal idiot, but other postings of the Ten Commandments (even those that have been posted for decades and are part of the decor) get the same treatment.

Vigilance to separate church from state is not done on a principled and evenhanded basis.
Well I guess if you showed me a case where another religion's monument is placed in a government building somewhere here in the states and no one's tried to remove it then I would agree with you. But until then I'm not going to give into the "they're picking on us Christians again argument."
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:13 PM   #24
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Okay, what do you think is the proportion of Judeo-Christian symbols that are hung in public spaces, vs. say Jain, Hindu or Buddhist ones?

When somebody sticks a Golden Buddha outside of the White House or a statue of Ganesh in the main hall of a court house, then that's wrong just like the Ten Commandments are wrong. And I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the frequency with which Christian symbols are exhibited is much greater than the one of other religions.

And EVEN IF, as you claim, Judeo-Christian symbols are being systematically wiped out of public space with a higher frequency than anything else, it still does not mean that they should be there! There either is or isn't a separation of state and church. If you see a Koran displayed in your Revenue building, then go and fight to have it removed. It's that simple.
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Old 09-05-2003, 01:27 PM   #25
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No way. Moore may have made his enemies, but the basis for the lawsuit requiring removal of the monument is that it represents an endorsement of a religion. After all, that is what the Constitution says.
OK, you've got me! Fair enough. The argument was based on it being in a government building. I guess I was just reading my own opinion into the thing. Hell, I don't know.
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Old 09-05-2003, 02:26 PM   #26
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To begin with, I thought the controversy over the Ten Commandments monument was ridiculous. I find it hard to believe that serious, intelligent people could waste that amount of time arguing over a monument.

That said, I don't think the comparison between this statue and the one of the Ten Commandments is a fair one. The statue wasn't something which was displayed in order to endorse religion. Would anyone suggest, for instance, that a public official should not keep a Bible in his office as that would constitute an endorsement of religion? I doubt anyone would have objected if Judge Moore had elected to keep a copy of the Ten Commandments in his private office, but it is a different matter when he places such a monument in a public area of a government building.
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Old 09-05-2003, 03:40 PM   #27
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We don't have any proof that this statue was in any kind of government building at all, even in an office. If Feinstein merely *appeared* *beside* the statue, that hardly counts as an endorsement of religion.
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Old 09-05-2003, 06:20 PM   #28
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We don't have any proof that this statue was in any kind of government building at all, even in an office. If Feinstein merely *appeared* *beside* the statue, that hardly counts as an endorsement of religion.
I agree. It apparently didn't have any text written on it; it was just a sculpture. It's probably there for artistic reasons and not religious reasons as sculpture is an art-form (my younger sister got her BFA in sculpture).
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Old 09-05-2003, 06:29 PM   #29
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Old 09-05-2003, 07:36 PM   #30
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nb -- there are publically funded museums that displays countless pieces of Christian art. I've been to several that have huge sections filled with paintings of Christ and Salome and St. Stephen, etc. But they are placed there as pieces of art.

Several government buildings -- including the Supreme Court and the Capitol building -- have depictions of Moses as well as other historical law-making officials. they emphasis his creation of laws, not the fact that he is in the Bible.

If Feinstein had a cross or a Buddah or a menorah, its ok because she's not using it as a way to institute a state religion. People have crucifixes in their offices and there is nothing wrong with that unless they try to convert people.

Moore clearly said that the Ten Commandments monument that he had placed in a government building that was paid for with public funds was to "put God back into law." He SAID he wouldn't place a monument with the Koran on it because our country was founded by Christians, not Muslims [ignoring the fact that most of the Founding Fathers were not practicing Christians or even Christians at all in some cases].

I don't care who you are or what you believe. If you use government money to place a government-funded monument in a government building, I'm coming after you and making sure you reread the First Amendment. What Moore tried to do was slyly institute a religion in a public courthouse with public funds.

I respect your opinion, nb, but don't try to bait this argument as being anti-Christian. As a Catholic, I proudly attend church, wear a crucifix around my neck everyday and try to live a good life. But I would NEVER support anyone -- including Moore -- who pushes my religion onto someone else. A free country means each person can make their own decisions about religion and not be intimidated by what a politican says in a political forum.
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