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Old 05-14-2004, 03:40 AM   #91
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Klaus :clap:

Also, thanks everyone for not posting pictures. I have stayed out of the other thread because I cannot bear to look at people suffering.
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Old 05-14-2004, 04:07 AM   #92
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I have not seen any evidence that it was actually wired up, I thought it was merely the mental threat of electrocution if he sat down that would crack the prisoner. If it was wired up then I would say it is too far but if it wasn't I would say it could be a legitimate way to get information. This is ugly business and it is something the west is not used to looking at, we must be objective in the way we look at things and see them within the context of the situation for better or worse.
(Sorry, re-read prior post you made proper distintion Beli, but the post makes a point about the difference between torture and legitmate techniques)

Fiat justitia ruat caelum!

EDIT: The US did look into these crimes, they have been documented and investigations have taken place. Do not forget that there is an entire justice system to work with these problems. The US let the ICRC into these prisons to document what was going on and provide ways to improve the situation. These pictures we see are months old (around october 2003 I believe) and there has been investigations. Make no mistake this is about the credibility of the US and the government has done a good job in a terrible situation, it has gone through the processes and has issued general apologies (no doubt cash settlements to follow), there is a problem and it was being fixed months before it broke in the press.
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Old 05-14-2004, 06:21 AM   #93
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A_Wanderer:

To quote Congresswoman Jane Harman:
"I saw cruel, sadistic torture"

And Paul Wolfowitz already confirmed that the methods of questioning the Pentagon allowed the US military violate the 3rd Genova Convention.
And he added that the Iraqi prisinors were treated worse than that what was approved.

Some examples:
NY Times reported that Chalid Sheik Mohammed was tied up and put under water to make him fear about his life and get him to speak (i don't know about you but i would say ANYTHING they want to hear, no matter truth or not to stope them from treating me like that)
Others didn't get their medication to make them speak, others didn't get food, others were told that they will be executed.


So i ask you: How can the US expect to be taken seriousely when they talk like this but act like that?

Ugly things like the Killing of a eight year old girl at a wedding-party by a US soldier in iraq can happen also it would be good if the US would apologize for their behaviour:
( http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140192004 )

but in prisons where there is no stress ANY misstreatment torture or rape must be punished in the same way it would be punished at home.

And the US citizens pay 5.000.000.000 $ per month for it, the whole next year that's almost 2000$ a second!

What makes me also sick is that many people are more affraid about how these pictures of torture might affect the climate of international terrorism than they are affraid that their country tortures murders or rapes (maybe even innocent!) people.

It is not the medias fault if people get angry in arab because they see this torture it's the fault of the men who commited these tortures and it is the fault of the people who didn't do enough to stop them!

You can read in the links below that for example the UK victims of torture in Guantamo Bay told the US Military what they wanted to hear, no matter if it was true or not just to stop the torture.

Quote:
Shafiq Rasul and Asif Iqbal, held at the base for more than two years, said they were deliberately humiliated
Guards used strobe lights, dogs and loud music
...
to extract information,
...
Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal said detainees often were forced to go naked as punishment for minor offences, even when female guards were present.

They also said they were forced to squat with their hands chained between their legs for hours during questioning.

"Soldiers told us, 'We can do anything we want'," the men said in the open letter to Mr Bush and members of the Senate Armed Services Committee.
Quote:
Mr Rasul and Mr Iqbal are among five Britons released from Guantanamo whom the British Government freed without charge after determining they were not a security threat.
-> it hapened to people who were NOT GUILTY

Klaus

Here some more background informations:
ai about Iraqi Prisons (on their website you can find much more, i just picked the last 2):
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGAMR510772004
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140212004
BBC - Treatment of the UK citizens in Guantamo Bay:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3546209.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3501910.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3713111.stm

And this was just todays headlines, for years. There are almost daily reports from various trustworthy mediasources

ps before some people start to say that these institutions just complain about US torture, here's the link to what ai has to say about the beheading of the US citizen:
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140212004
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:20 AM   #94
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Deliberate Humiliation, strobe lights, dogs and loud music, im shocked!

How could the US dare use such awful methods of torture on all those innocent prisoners within the Guantanamo concentration camp.

All the while I was saying to be outraged at beatings, rape, electrocution, execution of loved ones, being hung upside down for prolonged periods, amputation, having teeth and fingernails pulled out but how could I overlook the real terrors (strobe lights, dogs and loud music) that are inflicted in a supermassive campaign by the US government on all levels to invade another country for totally false reasons out of the basic desire to murder little girls and torture their parents.

Its really very simple: Rape, beatings etc. total abuse and is criminal behaviour: punish offenders and whoever co-ordinated it to the full extent of the law.

Low level techniques such as loud music or minor (i.e. 5 hours of sleep per night for weeks, not 5 days up) sleep depravation/alteration, being embarassed are allright and may be justified.

There are some key exeptions to this, one is Khalid Shiek Mohammed. This man is awful, he is directly responsible for Spetember 11, Bali Bombings, Daniel Perl murder. Thousands of lives have been claimed because of his actions, this alone does not justify torture however to gain information about future attacks or the location of other leaders does justify low level water board torture. I would rather dunk that piece of scum in water and be called inhumane than suffer another terrorist attack and say those people had to die because we weren't doing everything possible to prevent it.

Reiterate, wanton torture of general prisoners with no clear aim is bad, using every tool at your disposal to get critical information that will save lives is justafiable. This must all be done with correct judicial oversight so that such a system is not abused, I think that if anything is highlighted in the prisoner abuse scandal is that this stuff does happen, the only way we will ever have accountability is if we have a system to sanction such action in extreme circumstances.
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Old 05-14-2004, 11:04 AM   #95
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Whatever a person does the government has treat him in a fair way or the government itself dosn't behave better than criminals.

Remember that they didn't even torture the top nazis after WW2 in the "Nürnberger Prozesse" they could all see that the new system is justice, public.

If you torture people like sheik mohammed you might get the answers you want to hear but i doubt it will allways be the truth.
And the government should have a huge interest in finding out the truth about 9/11 and al-quaida wether it fits their expectations or not.
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Old 05-14-2004, 04:39 PM   #96
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A Wanderer, Im speechless. I believe the things you brush off are quite serious. No, the wires werent actually electrified, but thats not the point.

I have said my peace and I think we are just on 2 different wave lengths.

I agree with Klaus
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Old 05-14-2004, 05:12 PM   #97
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The pictures presented in the daily mirror seem to be fakes - the chief editor was fired today.
From the begining some people questioned details on the photos.
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:11 PM   #98
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Which picture are those? Please dont post them, if you can just tell me what they were roughly about that would be wonderful?
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:18 PM   #99
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The Daily Mirror pictures are the ones of British troops. They included an Iraqi man being beaten with rifles and a soldier urinating on an Iraqi. It's been suggested that the incidents depicted did actually occur, but those pictures were reconstructions of the events, not original pictures.
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:27 PM   #100
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Thanks. That urinating photo is what keeps me out of the other thread. Its on the first page or so.

It is terrible if it did still happen - with or without photograhic proof.

Thanks again.
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Old 05-14-2004, 08:30 PM   #101
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I agree with Klaus and disagree with A_Wanderer. There's no excuse for breaking the Geneva Conventions. If they didn't break them when they were trying the Nazis they shouldn't break them in Iraq. Period.
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Old 05-14-2004, 10:17 PM   #102
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I think the fact that they were not electrified is a very very important distinction. I also am not saying that we should totally disregard the geneva conventions, I think that those Iraqi prisoners should be afforded full geneva convention rights and what was done to them was awful but not necissarily the worst violations possible. I am making the point that Al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations are NOT entitled to such rights.

They violate the geneva convention's prerequisites for being entitled POW status by
1) Not conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
2) Not having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance.

The "torture" methods that were mentioned about Guantanamo are not serious and I do not think that they violate the Geneva Convention. Some of what happened in Iraq clearly did violate the Geneva convention and as such those responsible must be punished strongly.

You mention the Nazi's as a case in point. The Nazi's fought for a govenment, they wore uniforms, there was a clear command structure with accountability for actions. They (talking Wehrmact not SS) fought battles against opposing army's. When captured the leaders were entitled to Geneva convention status because they met the pre-requisites and would be tried for their crimes. Al Qaeda is NOT the Wehrmact. Their primary goal is killing civilians, the wehrmact did kill civilians but they were primarily a fighting force. The Al Qaeda leadership does not adhere to the rules of law, they do not fight for any power, there is no uniform or distinction for All Qaeda operatives, they hide behind civilians and commit mass murder. The leadership of Al Qaeda can yield valuable information, the CIA is not some crude beurocracy that beats its intelligence asssets to get information, there are very clear methods that gain maximum intelligence with minimal harm. I would disagree with using such tactics on Iraqi POW's who fight for the Iraqi army or Millitia's but I would not when dealing with a man like Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I am not pro-torture, I am simply saying that this will happen and if it does there must be proper accountability for it and it must be done in the proper circumstances.
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Old 05-15-2004, 10:44 AM   #103
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Oh, OK, Wanderer, I understand your argument. I'm not sure I agree with it but it's a good honest opinion. One thing that makes these terrorists different from other cruds is their sense of national identity. Arabs think in terms of membership in a tribe and not really nation-states. The modern nations in the Middle East were mostly divided up by Europeans. Thus, the terrorist who killed Nick Berg thinks of himself as a member of Tribe X, (sorry, I'm no good with those Arabic names) which is mostly in Iraq, even though he's a Jordanian citizen. Of course he's been sentenced to death in absentia in Jordan. If they ever get him he's toast. Damn terrorists.
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