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Old 05-13-2004, 07:16 AM   #76
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Dreadsox: and Lobbying from some people who wanted to gain power in iraq and some companies who wanted lucrative contracts in Iraq made this war necessary?
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Old 05-13-2004, 08:44 AM   #77
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The simple fact is that there is no real method to punish delinquent governments who make their people suffer. If you convict their leaders in absentia then there is no obligation to hand the guilty party over, sanctions are used as a tool to reinforce the power base of the dictatorship by making the population totally reliant on them, it doesnt solve any problem merely delays and contains them. War is unfortunately a real option and in some circumstances it is the more humane option.

It is a fact that Saddam Hussein remaining in power was a greater humanitarian disaster than the war and its aftermath.

How can we stand by for years preaching about how much we respect international law when we will not stand up for it?

How many people have to die before we act, how much blood is required for the peace of the grave that so many people seem to desire?
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:29 AM   #78
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>How can we stand by for years preaching
>about how much we respect international
>law when we will not stand up for it?

The current US government dosn't respect international laws anymore. You can see this for example what they do to reduce the power of the ICC you can see this in the way they decided who's a pow in iraq war (bush senior) compared to iraq war bush junior (3. genova convention)
You can see this in the way they want to put Guantamo prisinors to court. The President and his atandes are accusation, judge, jurymen and executioners in one person. The accused person can't talk with his advocate without the presence of the military (who are judge, jurymen etc). that dosn't fit international standards of a fair trial.
It remembers me to the witch hunt in the dark ages of europe. And Mr. Bushs words of a crusade fit exactly into that picture.

And all this in the name of liberation of the iraqi people?
A war against terror while the liberators terrorize civilians and the only excuse we have is "the terrorists don't behave better than we do so shut the f** up"?

We were convinced that Iraq had links to al-quaida and 9/11, that the Iraq had WMDs and was a IMMINENT threat to the world, ok forget about this it's about liberation of the poor iraqi people (what about the imminent threat of n.korea who definetly have WMDs? shut up boy the president knows what he does)
Ok in the name of liberation we should live highest standards to show the iraqi people why we attacked the country and how much better it is to live in a western democratic society. And every single person that behaves like these soldiers and behaves like mr. rumsfeld should resign, thrown out of job and emediately have to go to court because of their responsibility.
Throwing our western humanitarian values into dirt.
A personal apology is the first step - not the last!
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:41 AM   #79
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Alright Klaus.

You are exactly right.
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Old 05-13-2004, 10:35 AM   #80
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Great post Klaus! My sentiments exactly.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:20 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Dreadsox: and Lobbying from some people who wanted to gain power in iraq and some companies who wanted lucrative contracts in Iraq made this war necessary?
Shall we look into that further in another thread maybe? I disagree but have no interest in debating it.
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:13 AM   #82
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The Iraq/911 links did not exist then and the US government never explicitly said that Saddam had a connection to 9/11. I doubted any connection existed before the war and I havent seen anything solid connection since the war.

Politics is about making the right decisions in different situations, N-Korea is not a situation where you could attack without a very very very real threat to millions of people, hence it is being treated along diplomatic lines just as it was the first time round. Saddam has had 12 years to show he has verifiably disarmend and every step of the way he has obfuscated and hid behind beurocracy, during this time over a million Iraqi's died!.

Over one million dead Iraqi's because we were willing to leave the regime in power for those years, Saddam would have lasted at least another decade and things would not have gotten any better so we may say that 3 million innocent people would die so that his barbaric regime could retain it's right of soverignty.

15,000 is the number or Iraqi's that have died in the past year during the insurgency and US millitary operations.

2,000,000 is the number of Iraqi's that would have to die for "peace"

I am not alone in the belief that might may be right in some situations, I suggest everyone read this article for another point of view.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110005071


Some may accuse me of being more of a warmonger than a Nobel laureate, but I stand ready to face my critics. It is always easier to say no to war, even at the price of appeasement. But being politically correct means leaving the innocent to suffer the world over, from Phnom Penh to Baghdad. And that is what those who would cut and run from Iraq risk doing.
JOSE RAMOS-HORTA
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:17 AM   #83
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But do you think the yanks should be brought to justice for their war crimes too?
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:38 AM   #84
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I think that justice is being done allready, the guilty parties are being found out and will be dealt with within the law.

I will just clarify that I have not seen evidence for WAR CRIMES in US actions, I see abuse and some criminal actions by soldiers and possibly someone higher up but not War Crimes.
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:45 AM   #85
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From: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1420133.stm

Quote:
Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as: "Wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, including... wilfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health , unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement of a protected person, compelling a protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile power, or wilfully depriving a protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial, ...taking of hostages and extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:54 AM   #86
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We will see but I think that there is a distinction between what those US soldiers did and the crimes of the Serbian Army. Justice is being done and we should wait until there is a verdict before we criticize.

War is never a clear cut situation and too often people rush to judge before knowing the facts. I stand by my statement that what I have seen so far only rates about 6/10 on the torture scale. I know there is worse out there but I am only going to comment on what I have seen and what I know.
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Old 05-14-2004, 01:58 AM   #87
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Its a bit like being a little bit pregnant - you either are or you arent.

Yes, justice may well be done in the US. Im hoping they dont scapegoat all the junior soldiers and let the big guns go free.
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Old 05-14-2004, 02:45 AM   #88
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It is not a dichotomy of being a brutal war criminal or totally innocent soldier. There are degrees of violation and degrees of sentence.

Using the logic of a little bit pregnant in regards to human rights and war crimes the USA is equally as bad as Saddam Hussein's Iraq. I don't believe that this is the case and I assert that the violation is minor when it comes to other violations that have been procecuted.
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:05 AM   #89
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Dreadsox: It's ok, we don't have to discuss this. I respect that you have a different opinion and i can't prove mine.
Whenever somebody starts a thread where this fits we could discuss it again

A_Wanderer:
I'm sure the Bush Administration said never something a lawyer could proof that it was a lie but they said lots of things that the mayority of the US citizens thought Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks right before the war started.

And to the war crimes... we have to wait and to find out how the Administration handles these crimes.
We will see if they are willing to punish the responsible men (Remember Mr. Rumsfeld said he'd take full responsibility) like we expect other governments to punish men who would treat US citizens this way.

This is important and from my point of view non negotiable because of the credibility of the coalition forces, their governments and even their citizens.
It would have bin verry helpful if the governments of the coalition would have listened to the International Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and similar organisations who warned about crimes like these more than a year ago and it would be even more helpful if the envolved governments would not only examine what hapened at this jail where they have the videotape but also all the other places were these credible institutions warned about abuse (incl. Afghanistan and Guantamo Bay)

It might also be helpful for you to think about what you'd expect from your government if treatment like this hapened in your country in a jail to people who have not bin to court yet - therefore it's not clear if they are guilty or not.

This isn't a thing that "just" affects Iraqi terrorists it's something that affects the Honor and Credibility of all US soldiers who didn't commit Warcrimes and it even affects our Credibility and Honor.

Klaus
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Old 05-14-2004, 03:38 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I assert that the violation is minor
We agree that there have been violations. This is good. Im of the opinion that offenders of minor violations should be prosecuted as well as major violations. The sentence/punishment may well differ, but the crimes still need to be addressed regardless of how minor.

Personally I dont think traumatising a prisioner to believe that if he moved off a box he would be electrocuted to death is not that much minor than traumatising a prisioner to believe that he will be beheaded, and then beheading him. Yes, death is worse, but both are still huge crimes to me.

If any body pulled that electrocution stunt on my child I would certainly want them put away for quite some time.
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