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Old 05-11-2004, 11:15 PM   #61
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After the events of the day...maybe Joe Lieberman had it right....

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Old 05-11-2004, 11:21 PM   #62
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Originally posted by Scarletwine
I must say your analogy makes me sick.

That is the entire point. We want to spread a different attitude to our enemies. Like "Love your enemies as yourselves".

To my mind it is not worth saving lives while losing your soul. That is why I knew this war would only produce hate and misery.

What about leading by example as Jesus or Gandhi or MLK did. To my mind it is much more effective than military might.

We should resolve the reasons terrorists can recruite not fill their ranks.
IF you think this war has produced only hate and misery, you have yet to listen to the soldiers and civilians that have worked very hard to make Iraq a better place. What do you think continued rule under Saddam Hussien would have produced? Your also ignoring the recent polls of Iraqi people who say their lives are now better than they were before the war.

The Wanderer brings up some good points.
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Old 05-12-2004, 06:41 AM   #63
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Some things are worth fighting for, war is barbarous but sometimes leaving the status quo is the greater evil.

I do not advocate stooping to the level of terrorists, I loath the prospect of perpetual war and I believe we must preserve our liberties in the face of overwhelming threat from both terrorist's and governments. This must be balanced with a view of the world that does not ignore suffering, I see these prisoners being subjected to torture and I am sickened, the reference to having fingernails pulled out is apt because I would say that qualifies as serious torture. If the charges of rape are investigated and substantiated then I hope the guilty party is breaking rocks for the next five years but I will NOT fly off the handle and see this as a representative case study for all coalition prison conditions unless I see more evidence and a proper investigation.

The facts are as follows, there has been serious violations of the geneva convention by coalition troops, these cases have evidence and that is now being investigated within the context of a fair trial to determine guilt. If/When convicted the soldiers will pay for what they have done and all those responsible will be held accountable.

There is a problem and it is being solved, because I happen to think the abuse pales in the light of that from other parts of the world does not mean I advocate tougher treatment, far from it, I demand that justice is done for all the opressed peoples of the world and if that must be done (sometimes!) by way of the gun then so be it.

Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free. JFK
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:21 AM   #64
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:27 AM   #65
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Originally posted by STING2

...I and the majority of Americans give President Bush high marks on his progress in fighting the war on terrorism. The detention of these terrorist is necessary to say thousands of lives. Is it possible to make sure that there is not a single mistake in any of these detentions, no. The actions are necessary because the lives of millions of people are at stake.
...

Wow. I hope you can see a glaring inconsistency in your views here. You ask (reasonably or not is beside the point) for people to be patient and wait for investigations into these abuses, and seem incredibly wary (perhaps justifiably so - but again beside the point) but are calling the incarcerated "terrorists".

STING there has been no trial for so many of these people. At least with the fucknuts in yours and the British army who are without a doubt abusing POW's, there is pictorial proof.

I know you are going to reply with a whole bunch of rhetoric on the need for safety, the justification of the war, the admittance that abuse does occur in some way in any large group or organisation, and probably that some of these detained are infact suspicious individuals. I am not going to argue any of that. What bothers me is how you seem so inclined to keep referring to these people as guilty, yet when it is your precious military you are so slow to judge.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:25 AM   #66
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It's all very Kafkaesque, read The Trial it's gained renewed relevance in todays world.
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:47 AM   #67
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Originally posted by STING2
[QUOTE]It is is the media's fault when they ignore the overwhelming amount of good things the coalition is doing in Iraq to spend most of if not all of their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen people.[QUOTE]


Amen.

and now, with the american being beheaded, I hope everyone knows the REAL meaning of "torture"

What that handful of soldiers were doing is unnacceptable, but Bush is not to blame. Those few soldiers are to blame. But what they were doing to the Iraqis was not "torture". They may have been embarrased, but there was not physical torture. This is war. Those Iraqis are OUR ENEMIES. They either killed Americans, or maybe they know of the next major terrorist attack. We need to find out ANY info they might know. Once again, they are OUR ENEMIES. They arent people we just grabbed off the street to make fun of. God Bless the other 99.9999999% of our great military. THEY represent us proudly.

Some people here need to focus on them.......
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Old 05-12-2004, 09:33 AM   #68
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This incident is no different than many wars, many countries. A few quotes during our Phillipine occupation:

I went down on my knees and prayed to Almighty God for light and guidance and one night late it came to me this way. We could not leave (the Philippines) to themselves--they were unfit for self-government--and they would soon have anarchy and misrule over there worse than Spain's was. There was nothing left for us to do but take them all and educate the Filipinos, and uplift and Christianize them.": President William McKinley

Doesn't that sound familiar -sickening.

Our men . . . have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of 10 up.... Our soldiers have pumped salt water into men to "make them talk," and have taken prisoners people who held up their hands and peacefully surrendered, and an hour later. . . stood them on a bridge and shot them down one by one, to drop into the water below and float down, as examples to those who found their bullet-loaded corpses.": Philadelphia Ledger newspaper in 1901, from its Manila [Philippines] correspondent during the US war with Spain for the control of the Philippines

Our wonderful history.
And one from a more recent past.

The only place you and I disagree . . . is with regard to the bombing. You're so goddamned concerned about the civilians, and I (in contrast) don't give a damn. I don't care."
. . . "I'd rather use the nuclear bomb. . . Does that bother you? I just want you to think big." : Richard Nixon to Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on the Watergate tapes


When you demonize your opponent as our admin has it's easy to see how these soldiers acted that way.
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Old 05-12-2004, 10:19 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
It is is the media's fault when they ignore the overwhelming amount of good things the coalition is doing in Iraq to spend most of if not all of their time reporting on the actions of a few dozen people.
One problem might be that, as long as you don't have government controlled media, the media shows what the people want to see not what the military or the government thinks is helpful for the people.


Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


Amen.

and now, with the american being beheaded, I hope everyone knows the REAL meaning of "torture"

What that handful of soldiers were doing is unnacceptable, but Bush is not to blame. Those few soldiers are to blame. But what they were doing to the Iraqis was not "torture". They may have been embarrased, but there was not physical torture. This is war. Those Iraqis are OUR ENEMIES. They either killed Americans, or maybe they know of the next major terrorist attack. We need to find out ANY info they might know. Once again, they are OUR ENEMIES. They arent people we just grabbed off the street to make fun of. God Bless the other 99.9999999% of our great military. THEY represent us proudly.

Some people here need to focus on them....... [/B]
*sarcasm on* Well what we saw on TV is murder or terrorism and if you don't believe that it was real torture that hapened to the iraqi people maybe you can get a flight to a iraqi prison and ask them to treat you like you saw it on the pictures.
If you like you can ask your wife or girlfriend if she wants to join the party. *sarcasm off*

ok stop talking such crap. You don't treat enemies like that or you commit war crimes! it is torture to throw stones on people, rape people or force them doing sexual things they don't want to do.
Some of the prisinors died because of the wounds so this is more than information gathering. Various people (incl. US soldiers in iraq) estimate that the number of civilists who simply were at the wrong place at the wrong time is much more than 50% so rethink what these people did to the imprisoned men

Maybe it would be helpfull to take a class in human rights
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:17 AM   #70
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Legitimate question, what should be done to countries that violate international law with a total disregard for concequence?
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:31 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Legitimate question, what should be done to countries that violate international law with a total disregard for concequence?
Send them to the Hague. All of them. Black, white, brindle, all religions, all nationalities, including the USA - send them to the Hague.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:51 AM   #72
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:58 AM   #73
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What if the countries flat out refuse to comply and will just continue abusing like Saddam Hussein's Iraq? What action would be suitible dealing with him (an ideal case study)?
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:14 AM   #74
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A_Wanderer: what about:

1st the ICC finds out if the one accused is guilty or not
2nd if he refuses to comply the security council decides if they use military help to bring him to justice (=do to him whatever the icc decided)

Like basstrap quoted in another article:
"he said the US should never attack unilaterally. Because if you can't convince other nations that the war is just than you should reconsider your reasoning. "

Or like Executive Chairman, UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, Mr. Blix said:

"...However, I am pleased that we were able to show that international, independent professional inspection came to results that were closer to the truth and reality than intelligence agencies which were dependent upon national governments."
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:14 AM   #75
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No action necessary...oil contracts would prevent the UN from doing anything.

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