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Old 05-10-2004, 06:49 AM   #31
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Sting,

If I do not define how many, does that mean I am wrong. I believe more than 24. The report said that this was SYSTEMIC abuse. That means superiors KNEW and did nothing. Silence=Acceptance.

[Q]"This was morally wrong. If you're given an illegal order, even by a superior, you shouldn't do it. You go to a higher authority. We're taught that," said Staff Sgt. Nancy Wellons-Stewart, who is based in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. "Those people should be punished."

She blamed superiors for not putting a stop to the abuses.

"I don't believe that just one person could have done this on their own. They did this as a group," said Wellons-Stewart, of Pittsburgh.[/Q]

Even the troops think as I do.

[Q]"Where was the senior leadership? And how did this get so far?" asked Sgt. Glenda J. Bush, of Wisconsin Rapids, Wis.[/Q]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040509/D82F7PHG0.html

SYSTEMIC means there was comlicit participation. It does not mean that more thean 24 actively participated.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:47 AM   #32
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

Having read the report, I believe the words SYSTEMIC were used by the investigating general. That does not mean a few soldiers.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/arti...09194709990001
I agree. Hersch's new article contains chilling words from two ranking Generals.

"Detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation ... to provide a safe, secure and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence," Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, head of a military prison task force, wrote in a November memo, quoted by the magazine in its May 17 issue, out Sunday.

The magazine says that on Nov. 19, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top operational commander in Iraq, issued an order taking tactical control of Abu Ghraib prison away from the MPs and turning it over to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

That policy went into effect over the objections of Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, another military prison expert, who said the change was "not doctrinally sound due to the different missions and agendas assigned to each of these respective specialties," the story says."

Miller left Gitmo to go to Abu Ghraib. It makes me sick to think what has probably gone on at Gitmo. I think these two individuals are as guilty for the atrocities due to the implicit atmosphere they created.
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Old 05-10-2004, 05:30 PM   #33
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Originally posted by STING2


Can you name me a single country, group, business, church, military, that has NEVER had cases of abuse like this at any time ever?

How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:18 PM   #34
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Originally posted by paxetaurora


How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.
Or Tibetan sects or the Jains, whose entire religion is based on the notion that nonviolence is the paramount way, who will go as far as wearing nets over their mouths in order not to accidentally swallow an insect, thus taking its life.

I'm serious too.
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Old 05-10-2004, 06:26 PM   #35
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Originally posted by paxetaurora


How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.
Also the Moravian Brethren. I'm serious too.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Sting:


And that's exactly the reason why i don't like the idea to spread Democracy with weapons.
Also many people didn't believe that "their boys" could do masacres, it's only the army who dosn't have the possibliity who never tortures and abuses people.

By the way, do you think it's enough that "soldiers" like them are just thrown out of the army?

Klaus
That quite a leap going from talking about an abuse in a prison scandel to making a general statement about war and the spread of democracy. The coalition went to war in Iraq because it was a matter of international security and required the removal of Saddam's regime.

A Massacre is when thousands of civilians are slaughtered in fields in Bosnia, not the the mistreatment of prisoners in a prison.

As for punishment it will depend on the facts and the crime committed specifically by that individual.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:27 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Sting,

If I do not define how many, does that mean I am wrong. I believe more than 24. The report said that this was SYSTEMIC abuse. That means superiors KNEW and did nothing. Silence=Acceptance.

[Q]"This was morally wrong. If you're given an illegal order, even by a superior, you shouldn't do it. You go to a higher authority. We're taught that," said Staff Sgt. Nancy Wellons-Stewart, who is based in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. "Those people should be punished."

She blamed superiors for not putting a stop to the abuses.

"I don't believe that just one person could have done this on their own. They did this as a group," said Wellons-Stewart, of Pittsburgh.[/Q]

Even the troops think as I do.

[Q]"Where was the senior leadership? And how did this get so far?" asked Sgt. Glenda J. Bush, of Wisconsin Rapids, Wis.[/Q]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040509/D82F7PHG0.html

SYSTEMIC means there was comlicit participation. It does not mean that more thean 24 actively participated.
When I said a few dozen, I meant around 60. Systemic is a term, it does not say precisely how many people were involved.. Instead of presuming that this is representive of the behavior of troops in Iraq, why not wait and let the precise facts come out. I don't think there are more than 60 people involved but we'll see if the facts prove otherwise. This is an ongoing investigation and I don't think its right to jump to broad conclusions and generalizations as many people in the media and Arab world are doing. Thats what happened with the so called "Jenin Massacre" in Israel. Once the facts finally came out, it was found that 7,000 people were not massacred as the media reported, it found only 46 civilians had been killed and none were as a result of any type of exucution and were considered to be accidents.

Whether it is 60 or 120 or less than 60, it a tiny number compared to the other 200,000 troops and civilians working hard every day to make Iraq a better place.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:27 PM   #38
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Sting: as Dreadsox mentioned before (and as i could read in various sources like nytimes (who defended rummy today), bbc and tagesschau) it dosn't seem to be a problem of some individuals but a SYSTEMIC abuse which means the Government and the Military in general would have the full responsibility.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:35 PM   #39
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What do Quakers, Baha'is, Tibetan sects, Jains, and the Moravian Brethren all have in common? Their human. That alone says it all.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:36 PM   #40
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What I find most troublesome is how whenever anyone disagrees with you, you somehow find a way to put insulting words to represent their position.

I never said it was representative of all the soldiers in Iraq nor did I presume it.

Lest you forget I wore the uniform of this country for 8 years and I do not apprecitate the characterization of my position the way you did.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:42 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Sting: as Dreadsox mentioned before (and as i could read in various sources like nytimes (who defended rummy today), bbc and tagesschau) it dosn't seem to be a problem of some individuals but a SYSTEMIC abuse which means the Government and the Military in general would have the full responsibility.
Do you have all the facts and know all the names of the people involved? Instead of accusing people of being responsible, why not wait until the investigation is over. Its wrong to simply accuse every civilian and soldier over there of wrong doing simply because a report claims abuse was systemic.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:50 PM   #42
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Man, keep bashing that straw man. I don't think anyone here is saying that every civilian and soldier in Iraq is guilty of the atrocities committed by a few. But what happened over there is troubling if 5, 60, or 1000 American soldiers took part in it. The fact that it happened at all, and that sources are calling the abuse "systemic," is very disturbing.
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Old 05-10-2004, 07:56 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
What I find most troublesome is how whenever anyone disagrees with you, you somehow find a way to put insulting words to represent their position.

I never said it was representative of all the soldiers in Iraq nor did I presume it.

Lest you forget I wore the uniform of this country for 8 years and I do not apprecitate the characterization of my position the way you did.
"I do not know how you can tell someone in Iraq that we are good people when WE, THE OCCUPIERS BEGIN TO BEHAVE SO BADLY"

This is the statement that stuck out in my mind. I'm sorry I mis-interpreted it.
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Old 05-10-2004, 08:05 PM   #44
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Originally posted by ThatGuy
Man, keep bashing that straw man. I don't think anyone here is saying that every civilian and soldier in Iraq is guilty of the atrocities committed by a few. But what happened over there is troubling if 5, 60, or 1000 American soldiers took part in it. The fact that it happened at all, and that sources are calling the abuse "systemic," is very disturbing.
I think what happened there is also troubling. But I also find the media coverage and generalizations being made without the precise facts to be troubling as well.
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Old 05-10-2004, 09:01 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
What do Quakers, Baha'is, Tibetan sects, Jains, and the Moravian Brethren all have in common? Their human. That alone says it all.
What does that mean?
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