Where is our apology?

[Dreadsox]

Sting,

If I do not define how many, does that mean I am wrong. I believe more than 24. The report said that this was SYSTEMIC abuse. That means superiors KNEW and did nothing. Silence=Acceptance.

[Q]"This was morally wrong. If you're given an illegal order, even by a superior, you shouldn't do it. You go to a higher authority. We're taught that," said Staff Sgt. Nancy Wellons-Stewart, who is based in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. "Those people should be punished."

She blamed superiors for not putting a stop to the abuses.

"I don't believe that just one person could have done this on their own. They did this as a group," said Wellons-Stewart, of Pittsburgh.[/Q]

Even the troops think as I do.

[Q]"Where was the senior leadership? And how did this get so far?" asked Sgt. Glenda J. Bush, of Wisconsin Rapids, Wis.[/Q]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040509/D82F7PHG0.html

SYSTEMIC means there was comlicit participation. It does not mean that more thean 24 actively participated.

 

[Scarletwine]

Having read the report, I believe the words SYSTEMIC were used by the investigating general. That does not mean a few soldiers.

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040509194709990001
I agree. Hersch's new article contains chilling words from two ranking Generals.

"Detention operations must act as an enabler for interrogation ... to provide a safe, secure and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence," Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, head of a military prison task force, wrote in a November memo, quoted by the magazine in its May 17 issue, out Sunday.

The magazine says that on Nov. 19, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top operational commander in Iraq, issued an order taking tactical control of Abu Ghraib prison away from the MPs and turning it over to the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade.

That policy went into effect over the objections of Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, another military prison expert, who said the change was "not doctrinally sound due to the different missions and agendas assigned to each of these respective specialties," the story says."

Miller left Gitmo to go to Abu Ghraib. It makes me sick to think what has probably gone on at Gitmo. I think these two individuals are as guilty for the atrocities due to the implicit atmosphere they created.

 

[pax]

Can you name me a single country, group, business, church, military, that has NEVER had cases of abuse like this at any time ever?

How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.

 

[anitram]

How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.

Or Tibetan sects or the Jains, whose entire religion is based on the notion that nonviolence is the paramount way, who will go as far as wearing nets over their mouths in order not to accidentally swallow an insect, thus taking its life.

I'm serious too.

 

[verte76]

How about the Quakers or the Baha'is?

I'm serious.

Also the Moravian Brethren. I'm serious too.

 

[STING2]

Sting:


And that's exactly the reason why i don't like the idea to spread Democracy with weapons.
Also many people didn't believe that "their boys" could do masacres, it's only the army who dosn't have the possibliity who never tortures and abuses people.

By the way, do you think it's enough that "soldiers" like them are just thrown out of the army?

Klaus

That quite a leap going from talking about an abuse in a prison scandel to making a general statement about war and the spread of democracy. The coalition went to war in Iraq because it was a matter of international security and required the removal of Saddam's regime.

A Massacre is when thousands of civilians are slaughtered in fields in Bosnia, not the the mistreatment of prisoners in a prison.

As for punishment it will depend on the facts and the crime committed specifically by that individual.

 

[STING2]

Sting,

If I do not define how many, does that mean I am wrong. I believe more than 24. The report said that this was SYSTEMIC abuse. That means superiors KNEW and did nothing. Silence=Acceptance.

[Q]"This was morally wrong. If you're given an illegal order, even by a superior, you shouldn't do it. You go to a higher authority. We're taught that," said Staff Sgt. Nancy Wellons-Stewart, who is based in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. "Those people should be punished."

She blamed superiors for not putting a stop to the abuses.

"I don't believe that just one person could have done this on their own. They did this as a group," said Wellons-Stewart, of Pittsburgh.[/Q]

Even the troops think as I do.

[Q]"Where was the senior leadership? And how did this get so far?" asked Sgt. Glenda J. Bush, of Wisconsin Rapids, Wis.[/Q]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040509/D82F7PHG0.html

SYSTEMIC means there was comlicit participation. It does not mean that more thean 24 actively participated.

When I said a few dozen, I meant around 60. Systemic is a term, it does not say precisely how many people were involved.. Instead of presuming that this is representive of the behavior of troops in Iraq, why not wait and let the precise facts come out. I don't think there are more than 60 people involved but we'll see if the facts prove otherwise. This is an ongoing investigation and I don't think its right to jump to broad conclusions and generalizations as many people in the media and Arab world are doing. Thats what happened with the so called "Jenin Massacre" in Israel. Once the facts finally came out, it was found that 7,000 people were not massacred as the media reported, it found only 46 civilians had been killed and none were as a result of any type of exucution and were considered to be accidents.

Whether it is 60 or 120 or less than 60, it a tiny number compared to the other 200,000 troops and civilians working hard every day to make Iraq a better place.

 

[Klaus]

Sting: as Dreadsox mentioned before (and as i could read in various sources like nytimes (who defended rummy today), bbc and tagesschau) it dosn't seem to be a problem of some individuals but a SYSTEMIC abuse which means the Government and the Military in general would have the full responsibility.

 

[STING2]

What do Quakers, Baha'is, Tibetan sects, Jains, and the Moravian Brethren all have in common? Their human. That alone says it all.

 

[Dreadsox]

What I find most troublesome is how whenever anyone disagrees with you, you somehow find a way to put insulting words to represent their position.

I never said it was representative of all the soldiers in Iraq nor did I presume it.

Lest you forget I wore the uniform of this country for 8 years and I do not apprecitate the characterization of my position the way you did.

 

[STING2]

Sting: as Dreadsox mentioned before (and as i could read in various sources like nytimes (who defended rummy today), bbc and tagesschau) it dosn't seem to be a problem of some individuals but a SYSTEMIC abuse which means the Government and the Military in general would have the full responsibility.

Do you have all the facts and know all the names of the people involved? Instead of accusing people of being responsible, why not wait until the investigation is over. Its wrong to simply accuse every civilian and soldier over there of wrong doing simply because a report claims abuse was systemic.

 

[ThatGuy]

Man, keep bashing that straw man. I don't think anyone here is saying that every civilian and soldier in Iraq is guilty of the atrocities committed by a few. But what happened over there is troubling if 5, 60, or 1000 American soldiers took part in it. The fact that it happened at all, and that sources are calling the abuse "systemic," is very disturbing.

 

[STING2]

What I find most troublesome is how whenever anyone disagrees with you, you somehow find a way to put insulting words to represent their position.

I never said it was representative of all the soldiers in Iraq nor did I presume it.

Lest you forget I wore the uniform of this country for 8 years and I do not apprecitate the characterization of my position the way you did.

"I do not know how you can tell someone in Iraq that we are good people when WE, THE OCCUPIERS BEGIN TO BEHAVE SO BADLY"

This is the statement that stuck out in my mind. I'm sorry I mis-interpreted it.

 

[STING2]

Man, keep bashing that straw man. I don't think anyone here is saying that every civilian and soldier in Iraq is guilty of the atrocities committed by a few. But what happened over there is troubling if 5, 60, or 1000 American soldiers took part in it. The fact that it happened at all, and that sources are calling the abuse "systemic," is very disturbing.

I think what happened there is also troubling. But I also find the media coverage and generalizations being made without the precise facts to be troubling as well.

 

[anitram]

What do Quakers, Baha'is, Tibetan sects, Jains, and the Moravian Brethren all have in common? Their human. That alone says it all.

What does that mean?

 

[verte76]

What does that mean?

I don't get it either. These are all people who didn't commit abuses. They are all groups that didn't sink to some common lowest moral denominator. They are proof that there are good people in the world, and good *groups* of people at that.

 

[Dreadsox]

It is never right when an entire group of people are mischaracterized by the actions of a few.


I would say to Mr. Lieberman and others that think like him on this issue that it is wrong to characterize all Muslims by the actions of the fanatics.....therefore it is also wrong to characterize all who wear the uniform by the actions of some equally disturbed people. I think his statement was said quite poorly because it does characterize the people of Iraq as being involved in 9/11.

There is a difference here that Lieberman was trying to make. We will apologize, try, convict, and bring justice because of this situation.

Who is there to hold these fanatics accountable? Where is the action by the Muslim Community to police their own?

 

[STING2]

I don't get it either. These are all people who didn't commit abuses. They are all groups that didn't sink to some common lowest moral denominator. They are proof that there are good people in the world, and good *groups* of people at that.

Even individuals in these groups have committed abuses at some time in the past just as priest in the church have. The people in these groups are no more noble than the brave men and women of the US Armed forces or priest in the Catholic Church. All these groups have had individuals at some time in the past that have strayed away from the ideals of each of their respective groups and organizations and committed abuses.

There is no "perfect" organization or group that has "never" had any individuals at some point in time commit some abuse.

 

[beli]

The US Ambassador was on campus today, speaking about the Middle East. The Emergency Planning Committee (of which many staff in my office are members of) were put on alert, the Ambassador was escorted into the lecture theatre through an alternative entrance, and overseen by plain clothes police.

Just thought I would give you an indication of opinion of some non US people on this whole matter.

 

[Scarletwine]

"Report of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) on the Treatment by the Coalition Forces of Prisoners of War and Other Protected Persons by the Geneva Conventions in Iraq During Arrest, Internment and Interrogation".

Excerpts from report

The ICRC draws the attention of the Coalition Forces to a number of serious violations of humanitarian law:

Brutality against protected person upon capture and initial custody, sometimes causing death or serious injury.

Physical or psychological coercion during interrogation to secure information.

Prolonged solitary confinement in cells devoid of daylight.

Excessive or disproportionate use of force against persons deprived of their liberty resulting in death or injury during their period of internment.

Seizure and confiscation of private belongings.

"The main places of internment where mistreatment allegedly took place included battle group unit stations; the military sections of Camp Cropper and Abu Ghraib Correctional Facility; Al-Baghdadi, Heat Base and Hubbania Camp in Ramadi governate; Tikrit holding area (former Saddam Hussein Islamic School); a former train station Al-Khaim, near the Syrian border, turned into a military base; the Ministry of Defence and Presidential Palace in Baghdad, the former mukhabarat office in Basra, as well as several Iraqi police stations in Baghdad.


Methods of ill-treatment

Hooding, used to prevent people from seeing and to disorient them, and also to prevent them from breathing freely. ... Hooding could last for periods from a few hours up to two to four consecutive days, during which hoods were lifted only for drinking, eating or going to the toilets.
Handcuffing with flexi-cuffs, which were sometimes made so tight and used for such extended periods that they caused skin lesions and long-term after-effects on the hands (nerve damage), as observed by the ICRC.

Beating with hard objects (including pistols and rifles), slapping, punching, kicking with knees or feet on various parts of the body (legs, sides, lower back, groin).

Pressing the face into the ground with boots.

Threats.

Being stripped naked for several days while held in solitary confinement in an empty and completely dark cell that included a latrine.

Being paraded naked outside cells in front of other persons deprived of their liberty and guards, sometimes hooded or with women's underwear over the head.

Acts of humiliation such as being made to stand naked against the wall of the cell with arms raised or with women's underwear over the head for prolonged periods, while being laughed at by guards, including female guards, and sometimes photographed in this position.

Being attached repeatedly over several days, for several hours each time, with handcuffs to the bars of their cell door in humiliating (i.e., naked or in underwear) and/or uncomfortable position causing physical pain.
Exposure while hooded toloud noise or music, prolonged exposure while hooded to the sun over several hours.

Being forced to remain for prolonged periods in stress positions such as squatting or standing with our without the arms lifted.

These methods of physical or psychological coercion were used by the military intelligence in a systematic way to gain confessions and extract information or other forms of cooperation from person who had been arrested in connection with suspected security offences or deemed to have an "intelligence value."

This shows it is at most detention centers. Plus the behavior I've seen on tv when we storm civilian homes and bringout all the men. If you have read any of the accounts of released civilians, many detained for months with no charges, you would see that it is systemic and some of the allegations SOP.

"In this way, they set the tone for a world of torture on the Single-Power Planet of a military giant determined to have its own way and in documents like its National Security Strategy of 2002 said so in no uncertain terms. They determined the camera angles and set up the cameras, so to speak, but when the pictures came back they had no stomach for them. Words, that was another matter entirely."

 

[Scarletwine]

Here is a letter to President Bush requesting his leadership in the abuse allegations. It includes many recommendations. Let's see if he steps up to the plate.

http://tompaine.com/feature2.cfm/ID/10359

This reiterates the lack of action until the pictures became public:

"For the past year and a half, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, USA Today, Newsday, The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Christian Science Monitor and other leading newspapers have repeatedly quoted unnamed U.S. intelligence officials boasting about the use of torture and other ill treatment of prisoners. Numerous detainees have been killed or attempted suicide in custody in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay, prompting unprecedented expressions of concern by the International Committee of the Red Cross; suspects have been turned over to the foreign intelligence services of countries, such as Syria, with records of brutal torture; the ICRC has also specifically expressed concern about conditions at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq; and now, the U.S. military's own inquiry has found "systemic and illegal abuse of detainees" at Abu Ghraib.
...
For more than a year, the undersigned organizations and others have repeatedly asked you and senior officials in your administration to act promptly and forcefully to publicly repudiate the statements of intelligence officials and to assure that the treatment of detainees is consistent with international humanitarian law. We particularly asked that you provide access to detention centers, release the results of investigations and take other steps to ensure greater transparency of the detention process."

 

[Klaus]

Scarletwine: the International Red Cross has confirmed that the letter is authentic but that they are sorry that somebody gave it to the press

STING2: remember a few weeks and months ago you said no us soldier would ever do such a thing, didn't something inside you change now that you have the proof that the US military isn't innocent?

Today many facts look like the US government knew 1/2 a year or even a year what hapened, the only reason why something hapened is that the media talked about it.
There you see how important the role of media is in democracy and why many people get sick when they hear this "trust us" stuff from the current us government and why they want the international red cross in guantamo bay.
From my point of view Mr. Bush is destroying US values.
Chances are high that there are many civilists imprisoned in Guantamo, in Iraq and in Afgahnistan. In former wars (for example 1991 gulf war) the US Government created 1196 tribunals to find out if the captured people were civilists or unlawful combandants. (310 were treated as POWs like the genova convention describes them, the rest became free)
This time the government tells us "Trust us" we don't need tribunals we know who's guilty or not.
Mr Bush dosn't respect the law that's why he needs the patriot act and excuses why he dosn't care anymore about international rights. I think the damage he's doing now to the US reputation will least for more than one generation.

 

[verte76]

Sting, as a practicing Catholic and trained historian, I know about bodies of people and abuses. We had terrible abuses among some of our clergy during the recent sex scandals but it didn't include most priests, including not mine. I'm in shock; I sure as hell didn't expect to see this stuff happening in Iraq. I think my government is mixed up in this . It's a scandal. What more can I say!

 

[pax]

How many more "facts" do you need? How much more evidence are you waiting for to conclude that these abuses did in fact happen and were not in fact isolated incidents?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Has anybody seen the latest actions by those brave Iraqi freedom fighters?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C6F93CE0-8FCB-425E-BD40-672B38CF68B1.htm
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=5110381

Lets be objective here, US forces humiliate Iraqi prisoners to apply relatively minor torture techniques (I havent seen any fingernails or teeth being pulled out yet) to illicite information that may or may not (nobody here knows) have saved real lives in Iraq and the entire world rushes to condemn and some call it representative of the US presense in Iraq.

When islamist fighters capture an american civilian they see fit to not only execute him on video but do so in a most vile and degrading manner (having ones head chopped off then shoved into a camera is not a good way to die). This is compounded considering the crimes of such people all over the middle east, you have them killing a pregnant Israeli woman driving a car bringing it to a halt, walking up to it to film what they see and then murder in cold blood innocent little girls, Hamas just killed 6 IDF personell and are parading the remains around. By far the greatest injustice was be the appointment of the Sudanese government to head a human rights comitee when the government has embarked on a campaign of essentially ethnic clensing on the native african's in the South, the world doesn't care about what goes on there because the Arabs can buy the votes to keep it all hushed up.

We are owe those mistreated an apology and they will recieve it (as well as a large cash settlement no doubt) but those opressed by fundamentalist Islam are owed THE real apology backed by real actions to remove this scourge from the face of the planet.

 

[Scarletwine]

I must say your analogy makes me sick.

That is the entire point. We want to spread a different attitude to our enemies. Like "Love your enemies as yourselves".

To my mind it is not worth saving lives while losing your soul. That is why I knew this war would only produce hate and misery.

What about leading by example as Jesus or Gandhi or MLK did. To my mind it is much more effective than military might.

We should resolve the reasons terrorists can recruite not fill their ranks.

 

[verte76]

I saw the horrific shots from the beheading on CNN. The words "nauseating" and "disgusting" are too tame. The reporters talked to the guy's Congressman, who had been in touch with his family. This whole thing is almost surreal in its sheer ugliness. It feels like the world is on fire with ugliness, cruelty, and every other evil. I think I may need a vacation from political news for awhile, it's unbelievably ugly right now.

 

[verte76]

I agree Scarletwine, we should be leading by example. That's the most powerful way to do it. We shouldn't stoop to the level of the terrorists, and that's exactly what's happened in the cases of these jerks who did the torturing.

 

[STING2]

Scarletwine: the International Red Cross has confirmed that the letter is authentic but that they are sorry that somebody gave it to the press

STING2: remember a few weeks and months ago you said no us soldier would ever do such a thing, didn't something inside you change now that you have the proof that the US military isn't innocent?

Today many facts look like the US government knew 1/2 a year or even a year what hapened, the only reason why something hapened is that the media talked about it.
There you see how important the role of media is in democracy and why many people get sick when they hear this "trust us" stuff from the current us government and why they want the international red cross in guantamo bay.
From my point of view Mr. Bush is destroying US values.
Chances are high that there are many civilists imprisoned in Guantamo, in Iraq and in Afgahnistan. In former wars (for example 1991 gulf war) the US Government created 1196 tribunals to find out if the captured people were civilists or unlawful combandants. (310 were treated as POWs like the genova convention describes them, the rest became free)
This time the government tells us "Trust us" we don't need tribunals we know who's guilty or not.
Mr Bush dosn't respect the law that's why he needs the patriot act and excuses why he dosn't care anymore about international rights. I think the damage he's doing now to the US reputation will least for more than one generation.

KLAUS, I have NEVER said that "No one in the US military would ever commit some form of abuse". I have always stated that there are "bad Apples" in every group and organization.

The Military has already been investigating the problem, the media unforunately are not being objective and balanced in their reporting.

I and the majority of Americans give President Bush high marks on his progress in fighting the war on terrorism. The detention of these terrorist is necessary to say thousands of lives. Is it possible to make sure that there is not a single mistake in any of these detentions, no. The actions are necessary because the lives of millions of people are at stake.

When it comes to international law Bush has enforced it. If Germany or France had their way in regards to Saddam, Saddam would still be in power and the UN and the 17 resolutions passed against Saddam, would have no meaning.

Bringing Peace, Stability, economic development, and opportunity for a future that does not have Saddam or the Taliban in it, is what the Bush administration is helping to do in Afghanistan and Iraq. What are Germany and France doing to help the situation in Iraq?

The fact is, the Bush administration has done more than any other government in the world right now to combat terrorism, bring security and stability to the vital Persian Gulf Region, and economicly and politically develop two countries that have been ruled and controlled by thugs for decades. In the long run, that is what most people will know and remember.

 

[STING2]

How many more "facts" do you need? How much more evidence are you waiting for to conclude that these abuses did in fact happen and were not in fact isolated incidents?

Where did I say that these abuses did not happen?

Do you know precisely how many people were involved and who was abused? If not, you certainly don't have all the facts.

Without knowing precisely how many people were involved and who was abused, one cannot conclude as to whether these incidents were isolated to this prison and a few other area's or not.

I remind you have the incident in Jenin where the media claimed that 7,000 people were massacred and it was later found that only 46 civilians had died and all were do to accidents.

The point there is that its wrong to be making broad general conclusions until all the facts are known.

Another point is that to many people and the media are forgetting the incredible work that 200,000 coalition troops and civilians are doing in Iraq. The prime time news cast on ABC spent over 10 minutes on the abuse scandel and less than 60 seconds on anything else in Iraq. Most troops and civilians who have come back from Iraq are disappointed with the media coverage here in the USA and say it failing to show the amazing work they have done in building a new Iraq.