Where Does Christmas Belong?

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Macfistowannabe

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Source: America Online http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20041208132009990010

The phrase "Merry Christmas" removed from a song in public schools. Christmas carols banned at a high school event. A religious-themed float denied entry in a local parade. The debate over where Christmas belongs is erupting across the country. Where do you stand on the issue?


Source: America Online Voting Poll

Are you OK with Christmas-themed retail displays?
Yes 96%
No 4%

Are you OK with Christmas music in public school?
Yes 95%
No 5%

Are you OK with Christmas displays in a local parade?
Yes 97%
No 3%


Sources: ABC News, The New York Times


"We just wanted to show them the love of God and what Christmas is all about." -- Laverne Gillespie, who protested the secular nature of Denver's holiday parade

"Holiday celebrations where Christian music is being sung make people feel different. And because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable." -- Mark Brownstein, a parent in a town whose high school forbade a school band to play Christmas songs

"I think that people have become a little too dogmatic in their beliefs on either side." -- Eric Chabrow, a Jewish father who says his son should be able to play Christmas songs in the high school band
 
Well we've debated this one and to me it comes down to the birth of Jesus vs. Santa Claus.

Birth of Jesus should be celebrated in your home, church, any private sector.

Santa Claus...I really don't care where Santa is; play him in the school, the Gap, the gas station, I really don't care.

Christmas is already commercialized beyond meaning. But why insist on making Muslim, Jewish, etc listen to or sing "birth of Jesus" types of songs.

Come on be respectful! This is America, we call ourselves the melting pot, let's act like it.
 
One does have to wonder.

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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1286465/posts

ACLU and holiday spirit
Washington Times ^ | 11/23/04 | Burt Prelutsky

Posted on 11/22/2004 10:06:21 PM PST by kattracks

I am not a religious man. I'm neither proud of that nor ashamed. I merely state that fact to establish where I'm coming from. I have friends who are believers and friends who are not. Where religion is concerned, I believe in live and let live. I only wish that the American Civil Liberties Union shared that attitude. I don't like to describe myself as an agnostic or an atheist because I don't care to align myself with the people whose own religion consists of a profound antipathy to everybody else's.

Having said all that, I wish to announce that I despise the ACLU for its relentless attacks on Christianity and Judaism. It's bad enough that they will wage battle on behalf of anybusybody looking to banish Christmas and Hanukkah symbols from public places, including one's own front yard. However, these very same lawyers will eagerly go to the mat to safeguard a Muslim's right to wear a disguise on her driver's license, a Navajo's right to smoke peyote, and a cultist's right to ritualistically slaughter small animals.

Because they are so out of step with the majority, they can rarely have their way via a democratic ballot. There are, in fact, only two means by which they ever have their way. The first is by getting liberal judges to set aside election results, as they have done over such issues as capital punishment, illegal immigration and affirmative action. The second way is by intimidating those people — be they individuals, cities or organizations — that lack the backbone or thefinancial wherewithal to defend themselves against the ACLU's mob of shysters.
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People are free to celebrate Christmas any way they want, the holiday is so exciting, and so much fun to celebrate. While the voting poll did not specify what kinds of "Christmas songs" they were referring to, it got a landslide majority vote. To me, it seems like some of these people want me sued if I wish someone a "Merry Christmas" at work.
 
Yes I'll be the fist to admit the ACLU goes to extremes.

The problem is these groups started with good intentions and then they got overzealous.

But let's differenciate between the ACLU, the "PC movement" and common everyday tolerance and manners.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
To me, it seems like some of these people want me sued if I wish someone a "Merry Christmas" at work.

Well if you happen to wish it to a Jewish person than you are being insensitive. But no you shouldn't get sued over it.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Yes I'll be the fist to admit the ACLU goes to extremes.
I'm very glad you admit to that.
 

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BonoVoxSupastar said:


Well if you happen to wish it to a Jewish person than you are being insensitive. But no you shouldn't get sued over it.
I do keep this in mind, and wish them a happy holiday instead.
 
Allow me to attempt making this thread any more ridiculous...
 

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Here's my opinion on the matter- Christmas is pointless if there is no Jesus involved. I mean, what else are we celebrating (technically). ANyway, if schools want to avoid any controversy, they should just eliminate any sort of holiday reference and stop pretending that we are celebrating winter or something like that. Now kids sing about snow and sleigh rides and we all know how many times those events happen in Southern Cal or North Texas! I feel that if i were to go to a predominantly Muslim country where Ramadan is a huge part of their life, I would not want them to worry about what I feel. I mean, I would be the minority and I would not think they are trampling on my rights. WHy force the huge majority of Muslims to stop having public demonstrations of Ramadan (or even the daily call to prayer) for me. Very selfish I think, and thin skinned.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Christmas is already commercialized beyond meaning. But why insist on making Muslim, Jewish, etc listen to or sing "birth of Jesus" types of songs.

No one is forcing anyone to sing anything. What's wrong with adding Hannakuh decorations and traditions too?

Come on be respectful! This is America, we call ourselves the melting pot, let's act like it.

That's not much of a melt when you have 96% suffering for what 4% complain about. I say if that few people are offended, let them leave the room.

In the school I went to, everyone was encouraged to share their religious traditions with the class. It was very informative and spread understanding and acceptance. Hiding from it only makes it look like something bad. Interestingly enough, it was the Jehovah's Witnesses who were most offended by any mention of holiday celebration, even secular ones, and had to be sent out of the room.
 
These rules would have eliminated just about every float in the Christmas parade I was in last week. Not our float--it looked like a little castle--but just about all of the others.
 
hasn't this issue already been argued to death in FYM?

i think society has pretty much agreed that jesus isn't okay in public schools, but at home and in your yard, you can erect shrines to zeus for all anyone else cares.
 
cardosino said:


God bless you, I forgive you.


uh, just what does BVS need to be forgiven for?

or is this one of those "ecstasy of sanctimony" things Phillip Roth writes about? it does feel good to to wrap yourself with a warm blanket of righteousness and bestow forgiveness at will upon those poor misguided others who disagree with you, i'm sure.

:barf:
 
Irvine511 said:



uh, just what does BVS need to be forgiven for?

or is this one of those "ecstasy of sanctimony" things Phillip Roth writes about? it does feel good to to wrap yourself with a warm blanket of righteousness and bestow forgiveness at will upon those poor misguided others who disagree with you, i'm sure.

:barf:

Irony isn't the strong point of Americans "wait, wait, I DID get Pop......"
 
cardosino said:


Irony isn't the strong point of Americans "wait, wait, I DID get Pop......"


sounds like you've got irony and sarcasm all mixed up.

there's also no tone or inflection on email.

but to have one post where you capitalized CHRISTmas, and then in the next turn around and bless and forgive someone with a different viewpoint, i think it's fair to assume the absence of either irony and sarcasm. if i misinterpreted, i apologize.

and i've written papers on Pop and PopMart. i am one ironic MoFo. :bono:
 
My public school we never sang "birth of Jesus" type of songs. We sang "Over the river and through the woods", "Jingle Bells", etc. and this was 20 years ago. I never lost sight of what Christmas really is because of that, in fact it wasn't a big deal at all. No one even worried about it. I think today there is such a huge agenda to push your religion on others that people are making it a big deal.

I get the feeling that most here who find this offensive have been the majority all their life and have no clue what it feels like to be left out, has no clue to feel different. What are you all worried about celebrate it in your own way. It's not a big deal.
 
Actually I have a good idea of what it feels like to be left out and/or different, on levels other than religion. I am tired of this subject, but I really have no desire whatsoever to push my religion on anyone. In fact I learned quite a bit about other religions and religious celebrations in school and college and was fascinated by that.

I just think the PC thing about Christmas can be taken a bit too far, that's all :shrug: I truly have no desire to offend anyone else's religion and/or beliefs. :)
 
MrsSpringsteen said:

I just think the PC thing about Christmas can be taken a bit too far, that's all :shrug: I truly have no desire to offend anyone else's religion and/or beliefs. :)
I agree the PC movement has gone overboard pretty much everywhere.
I don't think you do want to offend or force your religion, but there are some here that want religious Christmas songs put in public schools that never even had them there in the first place.
 
kobayashi said:
for myself, christmas is a celebration of commercialism.

go commercialism!


i know! it's not like i can afford clothes during the year (rent will do that to you), so it's great that my parents love me enough to spend a few bucks and keep me remotely fashionable.

yay holidays!
 
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