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Old 02-11-2004, 02:12 PM   #16
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Here's an email I got today, I wish I could post the picture but I can't. So here's the text:


The picture Democrats have been hoping nobody had: John Kerry sitting behind Jane Fonda during an antiwar rally at Valley Forge, PA in September 1970.

John Kerry with Hanoi Jane protesting the war while our honorable soldiers were being killed. He and the entire lot should have been tried for treason. There were many thousands of soldiers decorated for their service in Viet Nam. The liberal press should ask us our opinion about Kerry. If any of you believe in this guy then you believe in the Easter Bunny and the Al-Quida may end up being your neighbor!!
There is a lot more to come out about this traitor. His Senate voting record is unbelievable!!!

Jack

P.S. He's the one behind and slightly to the left of the girl in glasses. This is real folks. He was not electronically planted here.

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.
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Old 02-11-2004, 02:32 PM   #17
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This picture? Not to further this silly stuff, but just to help out BVox




I just want an HONEST straightforward person who will actually do things to improve this country, but that's too much to ask for

They can both neener, neener, neener while things go to Hell in a handbasket...

If Kerry w/ Jane, Kerry's views on Iraq and GWB's National Guard service cancel each other out so to speak, what are we left with?
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
what are we left with?
Politics as usual....
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:26 PM   #19
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i'ii see your 1970 and raise you a 1994.

In a 1994 interview with the Houston Chronicle.


Mr Bush told the newspaper: "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment, nor was I willing to go to Canada, so I chose to better myself by learning to fly airplanes."
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Old 02-11-2004, 04:19 PM   #20
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An Open Letter from Michael Moore to George "I'm a War President!" Bush

February 11, 2004 (67th anniversary of the Great Flint Sit-Down Strike)

Dear Mr. Bush,

Thank you for providing the illegible Xeroxed partial payroll sheets (or whatever they were) yesterday covering a few of your days in the National Guard. Now we know that, not only didn't you complete your tour of duty, you were actually paid for work you never did. Did you cash those checks? Wouldn't that be, um, illegal?

Watching the press aggressively demand the truth from your press secretary -- and refusing to accept the deceit, the dodging, and the cover-up -- was a sight to behold, something we really haven't seen since you took office (to watch or listen to the entire press conference, or to read the full transcript, go here).

More than one reporter pointed out that those pieces of paper your press secretary waved at them yesterday mean nothing. Even if they aren't forged documents, getting paid does not necessarily mean you showed up to do your duties. As retired Army Col. Dan Smith, a 26-year veteran, told the AP:
"Pay records don't mean anything except that you're in or you're out," said Smith. "It doesn't necessarily reflect what duty you've actually performed because pay records simply record your unit of assignment and then all of your pay and benefits per pay period."

Mr. Bush, this issue is not going to go away -- and I think yesterday's actions just dug you into a deeper hole. You're probably wondering why the heck this story won't just die. You probably thought that after I brought it up last month and then got slammed by Peter Jennings for uttering the "d" word, the whole matter would just disappear as fast as bag of blow being thrown out the window of a speeding car on a deserted Maine highway.

But your "desertion" didn't go away -- and here's the reason why. You have sent countless numbers of our sons and daughters in the National Guard to their deaths in the last 11 months. You did this while misleading their parents and the nation with bogus lies about weapons of mass destruction and scary phony Saddam ties to al Qaeda. You sent them off to a never-ending war so that your benefactors at Halliburton and the oil companies could line their pockets. And then you had the audacity to prance around in a soldier's uniform on an aircraft carrier proclaiming "Mission Accomplished" -- while the cameras from your re-election campaign ad agency rolled.

THAT is what makes this whole business of you being AWOL so despicable, and makes the grief-stricken relatives want to turn away from you in disgust. The reason your skipping-out on your enlistment didn't matter in the 2000 election was because we were not at war. Being stuck in a deadly, daily quagmire now in 2004 makes your military history-fiction and your fly-boy costume VERY relevant.

You still have not answered the questions surrounding your National Guard "service." Let me repeat them as simply as I can for you (all of them based on the investigative work of the Associated Press and the Boston Globe):

1. How were you able to jump ahead of 500 other applicants to get into the Texas Air National Guard, thus guaranteeing you would not have to go to Vietnam? What calls did your father (who was then a United States Congressman representing Texas) make on your behalf for you to get this assignment?

2. Why were you grounded (not allowed to fly) after you either failed your physical or failed to take it in July 1972? Was there a reason you were afraid to take the physical? Or, did you take it and not pass it? If so, why didn't you pass it? Was it the urine test? The records show that, after the Guard spent years and lots of money training you to be a pilot, you never flew for the rest of your time in the Guard. Why?

3. Can you produce one person who can verify that he served with you in the Guard during the year that your Texas commanders said you did not show up? Why have you failed to bring forth anyone who served with you in the Guard while you were in Alabama? Why hasn't ONE SINGLE PERSON come forward?

4. Can you tell us what you did when you claim to have shown up in Alabama for Guard duty? What were you duties? You were grounded, so what did they have you do instead?

5. Where are the sign-up sheets that would have your name and service number on them for each weekend you showed up? Aaron Brown on CNN told us how, when he was in the reserves, he had to sign in each time he reported, and his guest from the Washington Post said, that's right, and there would be "four copies of that record" in the files of various agencies. Will you ask those agencies to release those records?

6. If you were in fact paid for that time when you apparently went AWOL, will you authorize the IRS to release your 1972-73 tax returns?

7. How did you get an honorable discharge? What strings were pulled? Who called who?

Look, I'm sorry to have put you through all this. I was just goofing around when I made that comment about wanting to see a debate between the general and the deserter. I had no idea that it would lead to this. And there you were, having to suffer through Tim Russert on Sunday, saying weird things like "I'm a war president!" I guess you believe that, or you want us to believe that. Americans have never voted out a Commander-in-Chief during a war. I guess that's what you're hoping for. You need the war.

But we don't. And our troops in the National Guard don't either. I know you see the writing on the wall, so why not come clean now? We are a forgiving people, and though you will not be returned to White House, you will find us grateful for a little bit of truth. Answer our questions, apologize to the nation, and bring our kids home.

Yours,

Michael Moore
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Old 02-11-2004, 04:28 PM   #21
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I am not particularly fond of Michael Moore, but those are some good questions.

As this President and his Attorney General have been so fond of saying, innocent people have nothing to hide.

Right?

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Old 02-11-2004, 07:04 PM   #22
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God, I am so sick of this...

I served in the reserves for eight years. It is NOT uncommon for people to get excused absenses and make them up later. That is what the pay records show. For goodness sake you do not have to be a Congresssman's son to get this. You walk up to the 1st sgt and put a request in writing. I missed for six months while working on my Masters degree. Six months of duty is 12 days in the Guard and Reserve. He made it up in the summer so that he could receive an honorable discharge. I am so disgusted that this is becoming an issue again. This issue is not going to get Kerry or any Democrat elected.
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Old 02-11-2004, 08:00 PM   #23
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Sorry, I disagree and think this is an issue that wasn't fully explored during the last election. It has been stated that his wish to have time off to participate in a campaign had been denied.

I'm particulary disturbed by the lack of human collaboration.
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:20 PM   #24
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Update on the issue from FACTCHECK.org

[Q]New Evidence Supports Bush Military Service (Mostly)
Newly released records reflect payments and credits for Air National Guard service meeting minimum requirements, despite a six-month gap.

February 11, 2004
Modified: February 11, 2004
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Summary



With Democrats openly accusing President Bush of being "AWOL" from his Air National Guard service during the 1970's, the White House released personnel and payroll records showing Bush was paid and credited for service during the period in question. And despite a six-month gap in service while working on a Senate campaign in Alabama, Air Force Reserve records show Bush was credited with enough points to meet his requirements for that year -- barely.


Analysis



The controversy over President Bush's military record has been heating up since Michael Moore called President Bush a "deserter," (see our earlier article ).

Democrats Make "AWOL" Allegation a Campaign Issue

Democratic National Committee chairman Terry McAuliffe repeatedly accused the President of being AWOL in nationally televised interviews.

On Fox News, January 21:

McAuliffe: George Bush never showed up. He was AWOL from the Alabama National Guard. He didn't fight in any battles and General Clark did. So I will put General Clark up against George Bush any day of the week.

And on ABC "This Week" February 1:

McAuliffe: I look forward to that debate when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard. George Bush never served in our military and our country. He didn't show up when he should have showed up.

President Bush defended his service in another nationally television interview, on NBC's "Meet the Press" Feb. 8:

Tim Russert: The Boston Globe and The Associated Press have gone through some of the records and said theres no evidence that you reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972.

Bush: Yeah, theyre they're just wrong. There may be no evidence, but I did report; otherwise, I wouldn't have been honorably discharged. In other words, you don't just say "I did something" without there being verification. Military doesn't work that way. I got an honorable discharge, and I did show up in Alabama.

Russert: You did were allowed to leave eight months before your term expired. Was there a reason?

Bush: Right. Well, I was going to Harvard Business School and worked it out with the military.

Immediately after Bush's appearance John Kerry said Bushs honorable discharge does not settle the question of whether he skipped Air National Guard drills when he was supposed to. "Just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question,'' Kerry told reporters.

In the NBC Interview Bush pledged to release any records that would clear up the matter:

Russert: But you would allow pay stubs, tax records, anything to show that you were serving during that period?

Bush: Yeah. If we still have them, but I you know, the records are kept in Colorado, as I understand, and they scoured the records.

And I'm just telling you, I did my duty. . . .

Russert: But you authorize the release of everything to settle this?

Bush: Yes, absolutely.

On February 10 Boston Globe reporter Walter V. Robinson -- who first reported four years ago that there was a year-long gap in Bush's record of National Guard service -- reported he had obtained two new documents that partially filled in that gap: "The personnel records. . . . constitute the first evidence that Bush appeared for any duty during the first 11 months of that 12-month period. Bush is recorded as having served the minimum number of days expected of Guard members in that 12 months of service time."

Later that same day the the White House released copies of those documents and others, including payroll records showing Bush had been paid for several drills during the period and was credited with meeting military point requirements for the 12-month period in question.

The White House said it had obtained all the documents from the Air Force Air Reserve Personnel Center in Denver, Colorado, and had not known some of them existed until Bush aides inquired after the President promised in his NBC interview to release whatever is available.

What the records show

The records show that National Guard officials credited Bush with enough points to meet minimum requirements for the 12-month period ending May 26, 1973, the period of the original alleged "gap" in his records. An Air Force "Reserve Personnel Record Card" shows Bush received a total of 9 points for active duty training, 31 points for inactive duty training, and 15 points awarded for his membership in the reserves. The points total 56, exceeding the 50-point requirement for satisfactory service during the period, though barely.

Other documents include one-page Air Force Reserve summaries of points earned in the 12-month period ending in May 1973, and the subsequent period running through Bush's last credited service in July 1973. (See "supporting documents").

Also released were copies of microfilm payroll records summarizing the days for which Bush was paid in 1972 and 1973. Though blurry and hard to read, they reflect payments for 82 days of services in 1972 and 1973.

Also released was a memo the White House requested from Retired Lieutenant Colonel Albert. C. Lloyd Jr., a former personnel director for the Texas Air Guard during the time of Bush's service. Lloyd said of the payroll and personnel records, "This clearly shows that 1LT George W. Bush has satisfactory years for both 72-72 and 73-74 which proves that he completed his military obligation in a satisfactory manner."

Lloyd was later interviewed by the Boston Globe , which questioned whether Bush had met "minimum training" requirements in addition to "minimum retirement" credits. The newspaper said Guardsman are required to serve 15 days of active duty to meet training requirements. The Globe quoted Lloyd as saying of Bush: " Should he have done more? Yes, he should have. Did he have to? No."

The records also show that Bush was credited with very little service during the period when he was in Alabama working on the unsuccessful 1972 Senate campaign of Republican Winton Blunt. Bush was paid and also got retirement credit for 30 days in the first four months of 1972, through April 16. But then begins a six-month gap.

During those six months Bush got permission from his National Guard superiors to attend non-flying drills in Montgomery. Also during that time he was officially grounded after he failed to take an annual physical examination required to maintain flying status. But the records show Bush received no pay or credits between April 16 and late October.

Guard Service in Alabama?

The records show Bush was paid and credited for drills on October 28 and 29, just days before the 1972 election. The records don't show where the service was performed, but this would have been toward the end of his time in Alabama. Bush was also paid and credited for four days November 11-14, 1972, around the time his aides say Bush was in Alabama briefly following the election.

That tends to support Bush's statement that he did perform duty in Alabama, though it falls short of conclusive proof.

The commander to whom Bush was supposed to report, retired Brigadier General William Turnipseed, said four years ago that he had no recollection of Bush appearing at his unit. But Turnipseed recently backed off that statement a bit, according to the a Washington Post story on February 4. Turnipseed said "he could not recall if he had been on base much at that time," the Post reported.

And after records were released, The Washington Times reported that a woman who had dated Bush during the summer of 1972, Emily Marks Curtis, says she "distinctly remembers" Bush returning to Montgomery after the election to fulfill his Air National Guard commitment. "I can say categorically he was there, and that's why he came back," the Times quoted her as saying. She added that Bush rented an apartment for a two-week stay and that she met him for dinner several times. While she did not claim to have witnessed him doing Guard duty, according to the Times she said, "He told me that was why he was in Montgomery. There is no other reason why he would come back to Montgomery."

"Not Observed" in Houston?

The newly released records show only sporadic service by Bush during the months immediately following his return to Houston after the 1972 election. They show pay and credits for six days in January 1973 and two in April.

It was the following month that his two superior officers at Ellington Air Force Base wrote that they could not complete Bushs annual evaluation covering the 12 months ending April 30, 1973 because "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report. How could Bush be paid and credited for drills and still not be observed by his superiors? Both of them are now dead and can't answer that. White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett says Bush was doing "odd jobs" for the Guard at the time in a non-flying capacity and his superiors might not have been aware of that.

The records do show a flurry of activity by Bush in May, June and July, 1973, as Bush was applying for an early release from the Guard in order to attend the Harvard Business School. In those three months Bush got credit for 38 days of service, more than he got for all of 1972. His last recorded day was July 30, 1973. He was released from service with an honorable discharge eight months before the end of the six-year term of service for which he had originally signed up.

The Reaction

Release of the payroll and personnel summaries didn't quiet all the President's critics. DNC chairman McAuliffe said, ''The handful of documents released today by the White House creates more questions than answers.'' But Kerry himself said he had no comment. "It's not an issue that I chose to create," he told reporters at Dulles airport in Washington. "It's not my record that's at issue, and I don't have any questions about it."


Sources



Ron Fournier, Kerry Raises Questions About Bush Service, The Associated Press 8 Feb. 2004.

Interview with Terry McAuliffe The Big Story With John Gibson Fox News Network 21 Jan. 2004.

Interview with Terry McAuliffe This Week ABC News 1 Feb. 2004.

Walter V. Robinson, 1-year gap in Bushs guard duty : No record of airman at drills in 1972-73, Boston Globe 5 May 2000: A1.

Walter V. Robinson, Globe Staff Bush Credited For Guard Drills But Time Frame Leaves Questions, Boston Globe 10 Feb. 2004: A1.

Walter V. Robinson and Michael Rezendes, White House releases Bushs Guard Records , Boston Globe 11 Feb. 2004: A1.

Mike Allen, Bush's Military Record Defended; Aides Respond to Questions Spurred by Lack of Documentation, Washington Post 4 Feb. 2004: A5.

Rowan Scarborough, Bush's drills with the Alabama Guard confirmed, The Washington Times 11 Feb. 2004 [/Q]

This is a DEAD horse....but keep politicizing it. It is one of those issues that would push more moderates like me into the Bush Camp. I laugh...sincerely that people who would defend Clinton from his little scam surrounding his service, would go after Bush on this. I cannot count the number of people who made up their drill time at other times. And NO the Commander of the Unit was not there when I made up my drills. hahah!!! That is so freaking funny....the commanders of reserve units have civilian jobs. If I make up my time, there may be a SGT or an officer there attached to the Unit. The commander of Reserve and Guard Units are usually out working their real world jobs like the rest of us.
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:27 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
It has been stated that his wish to have time off to participate in a campaign had been denied.
Oh....here is the MSNBC Timeline....I think you have your facts WRONG....take it up with MSNBC...maybe they are wrong!

[Q]
Jan. 19, 1968
Bush completes Air Force officer qualifications test in New Haven, Conn., while attending Yale University.

May 27, 1968
Walter B. Staudt, commander of the Texas National Guard, interviews Bush and recommends he be accepted for pilot training. Bushs application for enlistment in the Guard is approved.

June 1968
Bush receives bachelor of arts degree from Yale.

July 12, 1968
A three-member Federal Recognition Examining Board reports Bush is qualified for promotion to 2nd Lieutenant in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron.

July 14, 1968
Bush attends basic military training in San Antonio.

Aug. 25, 1968
Completes basic military training.

Nov. 26, 1968 - Dec. 2, 1969
Attends undergraduate pilot training with the 3559th Student Squadron, Moody Air Force Base, Ga. He is trained to fly standard Air Force aircraft, including the T-31, T-37, and T-39.

Dec. 29, 1969 - Jan. 20, 1970
Trainee, 111th Squadron, Ellington Air Force Base, near Houston.

Jan. 11, 1970
Assigned flying duty as a pilot of F-102 fighter interceptors, 111th Squadron at Ellington.

Aug. 24, 1970
Three-member board recommends 2nd Lt. Bush for promotion to first lieutenant. Bush later receives the promotion.

1971
Participates in drills and alerts at Ellington. Begins work for Houston-based agricultural company.

May 1972
Bush asks for and receives permission to continue his duties in Alabama while he works as political director on the Senate campaign of Winton M. Blount, a friend of his father. Loses flight credentials after missing physical exam.

Sept. 6, 1972
Bushs request for a three-month transfer to 187th TAC Recon Group, Montgomery, Ala. is approved so he can work as political director for a Senate campaign.

November 1972
Bush returns to his unit at Ellington in Texas.


May-July 1973
Participates in non-flying drills at Ellington. Works at inner-city poverty program earlier in the year.

Sept. 18, 1973
Bush receives permission to transfer to reserve status and is placed on inactive guard duty about six months before six-year commitment ends. Attends Harvard Business School in the fall.

Oct. 1, 1973
Receives honorable discharge.



Source: The Associated Press Print this

In 1972, then-citizen Bush got a job working on a U.S. Senate campaign in Alabama and he looked into attending [/Q]
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
God, I am so sick of this...
For goodness sake you do not have to be a Congresssman's son to get this. You walk up to the 1st sgt and put a request in writing.
And you get excused just like that? (snaps fingers) How many non-congressman's son's and daughter's know this? Really! I'm curious. I'm not that up on the military procedures of who get's excused how and why. Does Joe Blow from the Bronx get the same considerations as Joe Bush from the Texas Bush's. I don't think it's that elementary, my dear.
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by sue4u2

I don't think it's that elementary, my dear.

My Dear Wow...condescending tone? Hmmm...my internet antennae must be off.

I am sorry Sue, MY DEAR...How many years have you served in the Reserves or Guard?? Either you think I am typing off the top of my head making shit up, or you do not care to hear what someone who wore the uniform experienced.

.... I had 6 months defered without batting an eye. People also get excused from Drills when they attend schooling or training. it is NOT uncommon.

You get your first reprimand after missing three UNEXCUSED months of Drills. I believe TEN Drills it is UNEXCUSED in a year before you are Dishonorably discharged. I may be a LITTLE off in that, but I know for certain that I am not far off.

Of course, my 8 YEARS in, means squat on this topic. I guess I do not know what I am talking about.

See ya....My dear
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Old 02-11-2004, 09:59 PM   #28
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Originally posted by Dreadsox



My Dear Wow...condescending tone? Hmmm...my internet antennae must be off.

I am sorry Sue, MY DEAR...How many years have you served in the Reserves or Guard?? Either you think I am typing off the top of my head making shit up, or you do not care to hear what someone who wore the uniform experienced.

.... I had 6 months defered without batting an eye. People also get excused from Drills when they attend schooling or training. it is NOT uncommon.

You get your first reprimand after missing three UNEXCUSED months of Drills. I believe TEN Drills it is UNEXCUSED in a year before you are Dishonorably discharged. I may be a LITTLE off in that, but I know for certain that I am not far off.

Of course, my 8 YEARS in, means squat on this topic. I guess I do not know what I am talking about.

See ya....My dear
One similarity between the President and myself is that I made up those twelve drills between the end of May 1995 and June 1995 just weeks before I was honorably discharged as my contract was indeed up. I was reminded by my 1sgt to get myself in there to make up the missing time.

What is a years worth of drill time......

One weekend a month. One night a month during the week. Two weeks a year. All together....32 Days a Year all together without any surprise activations. He would NOT have been paid for 32 Days.

When I made up drills there were NEVER any more than two or three people around because I made them up on weekdays.
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:21 PM   #29
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To answer crusader's original question, by the looks of it in here, I'd say it is an issue?

......
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Old 02-11-2004, 10:42 PM   #30
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No more an issue than having sex with interns.....
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