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Old 03-12-2004, 05:39 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
What is shown is a video fragment edited in a way to portray one soldier as giddy about killing. The video fragments may be taken out of context thus undermining the suggested conclusion.
So quick to defend the indefensible.

The video shows a soldier murder a man who is lying on the ground injured. In what way do you believe this to have been edited in a way which undermines its validity?

The soldier is heared cheering in celebration after murdering the man. Are you suggesting the sound recording may not be accurate?
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Old 03-12-2004, 06:59 AM   #17
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Lets see...context....

Was the man shooting just before? Had he killed or hit someone with fire from his gun? Had he been sniping at them for a period of time?

So quick to judge another poster

Since we are into not putting words in peoples mouths (Being the champion and all), NB agreed that if the tape was correct, this situation was WRONG. Stating that you want more context, IS not defending, it is reasonable given the fact that pictures, and clips can be used and edited to make a point.

The soldier at the end...should be seeing a councilor.
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:08 AM   #18
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this is war , man against man , animal against animal , and gun-makers are living in paradise
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:27 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Lets see...context....

Was the man shooting just before? Had he killed or hit someone with fire from his gun? Had he been sniping at them for a period of time?

So quick to judge another poster

Since we are into not putting words in peoples mouths (Being the champion and all), NB agreed that if the tape was correct, this situation was WRONG. Stating that you want more context, IS not defending, it is reasonable given the fact that pictures, and clips can be used and edited to make a point.

The soldier at the end...should be seeing a councilor.
No NB said that "committing or cheering a murder is not acceptable". I'm really trying not to put words in his mouth, but his writings lead me to believe that he thinks there is a context in which this can be seen as something other that murder. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally I think context is always important or at least interesting, but I still think the possibillities you listed above Dread do not justify the soldiers behaviour. If a person seizes to be a threat then you take him or her prisoner. I believe that's in the Geneva convention.

Anyway, we will never know because the US authorities decided not to launch an investigation, not even after the context.
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:35 AM   #20
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Originally posted by DrTeeth
Personally I think context is always important or at least interesting, but I still think the possibillities you listed above Dread do not justify the soldiers behaviour. If a person seizes to be a threat then you take him or her prisoner. I believe that's in the Geneva convention.
The cheering is horrific to me too....although if the man had killed some of theirs or been sniping at them all day, I could understand how the cheering occured. CONTEXT

I cannot remember from the footage if the person is still armed.
I cannot tell from the footage if there is another person with a gun out there that could prevent him from being taken prisoner.
I cannot tell if the crawling man shot a weapon just before the film started filiming.CONTEXT.

If it is accurate, it shows something very wrong. And I agree with you. I am not going to rush to judgement over and edited clip.
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:45 AM   #21
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Yeah, the options you listed in your last post could have prevented the soldiers from taking him prisoner even though it seems like a bit of a stretch. In any case we could have known all this by now if the authorities had launched an investigation, but it seems they didn't even bother to look into it (at least, that's what I've heard). This is perhaps the most troubling part of this case.
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Old 03-12-2004, 07:54 AM   #22
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I agree...if footage like this makes it out to the press...it is foolish to not launch an investigation....unless you have something to hide. This bothers me.
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Old 03-12-2004, 09:13 AM   #23
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Can we leave the personal sniping (no pun intended) out of this?

I doubt anyone thinks this is perfectly ok (the link). Even without the background, it is horrendous footage of a man being shot. It is difficult to watch and not be moved in some way.

Fizz: nbc is merely stating he is interested in the context, the footage and occurances not shown.
NBC: fizz is merely reacting to solely what is presented in the footage.
Dread: please refrain from dragging issues from other threads into this, thus adding to the tension.


Thanks.
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Old 03-12-2004, 10:37 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Lets see...context....

Was the man shooting just before? Had he killed or hit someone with fire from his gun? Had he been sniping at them for a period of time?

So quick to judge another poster
None of the above makes any difference to how horrified I am to see an American soldier celebrating having killed someone. It makes no difference if the man had been carrying a weapon or had shot at the soldiers, it is still disgusting that the soldiers celebrate his death.

The only reason I asked those questions of nbc was that he seemed to suggest that the film had been edited and didn't really show a soldier celebrating after killing someone. I wondered if he had any evidence to support the suggestion or if it was speculation. (Sorry for talking about you like you're not here, nbc. )

I agree with you, Dread, that there should have been an investigation of this. The fact that it's been swept under the carpet really does suggest that someone has something to hide.
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Old 03-12-2004, 11:31 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
The only reason I asked those questions of nbc was that he seemed to suggest that the film had been edited and didn't really show a soldier celebrating after killing someone. I wondered if he had any evidence to support the suggestion or if it was speculation. (Sorry for talking about you like you're not here, nbc. )
I was questioning the editing of the film. The clip at the end shows a soldier commenting on a just lived combat experience. We do not know if this was the soldier involved in the earlier part of the same clip. I think Dread can speak better than I to what the combat experience is like and the emotional swings that can take place by those on the front lines.

Also, for the off camera remarks made after the shooting, as Dread pointed out, we do not know what happened immediately before the clip shown. If these soldiers were celebrating the killing of a non-combatant, I would expect not only investigation, but also prosecution.

My point has been that we can create presumptions and mislead viewers by showing video fragments.
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Old 03-12-2004, 06:19 PM   #26
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I have been shot at twice in my life. Once low crawling across a field with many M60 bullets flying over my head and dynomite exploding around me. I was scared out of my mind. The second was not while in the army and I was foolishly playing the hero, rushing into an alley after a woman who was being mugged.

I cannot say how I would have reacted. I have said and done many things in my life that I wish I could take back. If the man was a sniper and had been firing at us, I would not have felt badly about his end. I cannot say that I would not have pulled the trigger. Hopefully this does not make anyone dislike me any more than you already do. I have searched my soul all day over this. I do not like that part of me, and part of being a teacher allows me to do something good for the world. I hope and pray that through teaching I am making a difference in the world.

I still wonder what has been happening in Iraq. Snipers generally work in pairs of two. I am wondering if people have been shot at while trying to take prisoners. Again, the photo makes it seem like the Iraqi was alone but I do not believe that. There had to be a reason and it has not been shown to us.

I do know that I would never had shown the glee that the soldier showed at the end. I remember people in Boot Camp that would have behaved that way. Combat, war, and stress sometimes bring out the worst in people.
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Old 03-21-2004, 05:33 AM   #27
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Its a start,..

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=4611896
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Old 03-21-2004, 05:36 AM   #28
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did anyone see the second link ? Where a gunman from a helicopter shoots with his 30mm gun on a wounded Iraqi ?
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Old 03-21-2004, 05:50 AM   #29
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The second link didn't work for me whe you originally posted and still wont now. It shows a semi loaded page full of red x's.

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Old 03-21-2004, 06:31 AM   #30
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First of all I think NBC is right we need context. This is a pretty damning piece of video, but as we are all aware everything this day and age can be doctored. It's to the point where I find myself believing in very little, and sometimes I find myself believing in things just because it goes along with my leanings and that's wrong and I'm trying really hard not to do that.

On another note in context with something Dread said and very few people know this about me, but I was faced with one of the most difficult decisions of my life once...I was attacked and in fighting myself out of the situation I had the choice of killing my attacker. I suffered some major injuries due to not killing my attacker, but was able to eventually leave the situation. I had the oppurtunity at one point and chose not to, just because honestly I couldn't do it. It's a decision I think about every day of my life, because I don't know if others have suffered because I didn't. But then again I don't know if I could have lived with myself if I had, even though I knew my life was in danger.

If this video is true I don't know how anyone could celebrate the death of another human. I mean I faced someone who was willing to take my life for a car and I couldn't do it. If it came down to it and I had absolutely no choice I would have but probably would have felt guilty the rest of my life. I would do anything in my right to defend another human life and if it came down to killing someone else then yes I would do it, but never could I celebrate it. Never would I accept any recognition for it. No matter how evil this person is, never could I kill and celebrate.
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