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Old 06-23-2004, 02:30 AM   #16
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I do try to avoid being ignorant and ethnocentric, may you please give me incidences so that I can improve any flaws, is it wrong to want a just peace?
For starters, you wrote "Millions of Muslims find such speech unfair and wrong but Millions more view such rhetoric as truth."

How do you intend to prove that statement factual?
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Old 06-23-2004, 02:31 AM   #17
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double post.
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Old 06-23-2004, 02:39 AM   #18
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Written by A_Wanderer:

"This quote should show to a degree that most of us would criticise anybody who said that about Muslims (and rightly so) but care not a jot about Muslim Holy Men inciting violence against the rest of the world and getting labled moderates and gaining legitmacy and leads me to say why we are putting up with it when so many lives are at stake, can't non-muslims call it what it really is - blatant racism - without having the label turned against them."

I'm curious, A_Wanderer, as to why you are so careful to distinguish between "non-muslims" and you? Your argument is centered around an "us against them" mentality. My question to you is: why?
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Old 06-23-2004, 03:23 AM   #19
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**Double Post** read below.
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Old 06-23-2004, 03:24 AM   #20
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I am an atheist, I say us collectively because I am speaking from the perspective of a westerner and I am assuming that most on this board also come from a simmilar background. I have no problem with people wanting to worship the way they want but I have a problem with those who commit violence in the name of religion, assuming that nobody on this forum advocates violence in the name of religion then its safe to say that we are collectively an "us" who condemn those who commit evil deeds and use religion as an excuse.

I have a very serious problem with the world in its current state because there is a definite threat from islamists who desire to see a renewed caliphate on a global scale, this is an extreme view and it shouldn't even be heard in the world but it is. The reason that these men are able to preach this and gain influence all over the world is because they are having their agenda facilitated by the west. Every time that we allow an extremist preacher to come to the west and give an obligitary message of peace and be percieved as a moderate we are giving him legitimacy and stifling real voices of peace and understanding. I am not Islamaphobic, I am stating it quite clearly just to defend myself here, I have no problem if people want to live their lives anyway they want with one key exception. The exception is when their way of life will kill or injur others, that cannot be allowed to occur and we cannot allow such a violent school of thought gain influence in the world, I will proudly fight against violence and ignorance in the world because I believe people have indivisible rights the world over and these men, those clerics that wan't to see the Jews exterminated and other Infidels made into Dhimmies in a global Islamic Autocracy are a direct threat to these individual rights that have proved so sucessfull for western civilization, Ideal and Values that have been fought for by our forfathers against Tyranny, Fascism and Communism, Islamism is another crisis to liberty however it also provides an oppertunity for the western world to spread the concept of liberal democracy around the world and bring about a revolution in thought in the Islamic world, if this happens there will be no more war on terror or pointless proxy wars - there will be peace.

I do have an us and them mentality that is true, I have a problem with Islamism, I have definied it before but I shall again, Islamism is a political ideology that entails having the political, economic and social imperitives of the state become Islamic in the strictest sense, literal interperatations which would threaten individual liberty all over the world in the same manner the Taliban did in Afghanistan. It is a hateful, repressive and violent ideology which we are most certainly engaged in a war with. I cannot say the world is against such men because the world obviously is not, many people are under the misguided assumption that their cause is righteous and they either support the Islamists directly or sit back and do not criticise. There is most certainly us and them, there are those that would have the world live in darkness and destruction or those that would see a free and open world where people have the right to live the way that they want without fear of violence or percecution.

I advocate freedom from religious percecution, the right for people to live in peace in free and open societies and I am being labled ignorant and ethnocentric? Is it because I am saying that there is a problem within Islamic society that needs to be removed. I will not say that this justifies my argument that criticism of Islam risks being labled a racist however it certainly makes one think.

In regards to particular criticism I shall defend my position as I am fully entitled too.

Quote:
For starters, you wrote "Millions of Muslims find such speech unfair and wrong but Millions more view such rhetoric as truth."

How do you intend to prove that statement factual?
I think that it is fair to say that the majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful people who have little interest in the politics of the world, they follow religious teachings loosely and lead normal lives. I also think that of the 1.1 billion Muslims in the world there is definitely a section that follows a selectively violent version of their religion and who honestly believe that "the Jews are the decendents of those who were turned into Pigs and Mokeys by allah". These people are the ones that are able to walk into nightclubs and blow themselves up, murder children at point blank range and commit mass murder on September 11. There is definitely millions of people who cheered for September 11 and support the destruction of the Israeli nation and we see this in the views presented in the Arab Media and the body bags created by terrorism. That statement is a legitimate point that there are violent people out there who do follow their relgion in a violent fashion and that we must never overlook this in the name of political correctness. This section of violent Muslims who either take up arms directly of support violence has been shown in polls and through mainstream Arab culture to number in the millions hence we all have a problem on our hands that must be dealt with.

Quote:
can't non-muslims call it what it really is - blatant racism - without having the label turned against them."

I'm curious, A_Wanderer, as to why you are so careful to distinguish between "non-muslims" and you? Your argument is centered around an "us against them" mentality. My question to you is: why?
Quite simply if a Muslim stands up and criticises "holy-men" who will justify violence with selective religious teachings then he will be listened to even if he calls them "evil". If a westerner or other non-Muslim were to make the same allegations against such "holy-men" and used the world evil then they would be labled a racist and would be shouted down even if their arguments were the same. It is a double standard which is applied for no other reason than political correctness rather than genuine concern for religious freedoms.

There is a serious problem in the world and it isn't in the White House, it is in every religious school where children are told that it is righteous to murder nonbelievers, it is whenever the media will call evil men millitants thus reducing the publics perception of the evil message they are spreading throughout the world, it is whenever we don't condem Islamic imperialism and crimes because we feel that it is nessicary to hold them to different standards in the name of political correctness. If we expect to survive the 21st century we must bring Islam out of the dark ages, we must not allow Islamists to hijack an entire religion and we must support real moderates and progressives rather than Janus headed extremists. That is what I believe and that is why I will point out injustice when I see it.
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Old 06-23-2004, 08:02 AM   #21
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U2Kitten is right: No spinoff threads.

From the forum FAQs:

"Please do not start new threads asking why a thread was closed. PM the moderator who closed the thread, or email Elvis to discuss it in private."

If anyone has a question about a closed thread, please contact a mod or admin.

Thanks.
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