What's the world going to?

[U2girl]

Did you ever think about that - when you hear about rapings or child abuse or murders...

how do people deal with that? Is there a punishment in human power for such crimes? Isn't that beyond any punishment conceivable?

What is incomprehendible to me is - how can a human being do such a thing to anyone else, much less do it to a relative?

Call me old-fashioned or idealistic, but i can't imagine why or how anyone could be capable of such evil acts.

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be uncool, yes be awkward

 

[IvanClaytonJnr]

Milosevic is a political victim , too many bastards like him ( from all the world ,including States and europe ) are walking free

 

[Lemonite]

ENjoy this one..

L.Unplugged

Reuters:

Milosevic Tapes Show Cordial Clinton, Goofy Family
Wed Feb 6,10:43 AM ET
By Douglas Hamilton

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Slobodan Milosevic had cordial relations with Bill Clinton and was apoplectic when the daily meant to be his mouthpiece savaged the then U.S. president in a bungled editorial, according to transcripts of his phone calls.

The leaked transcripts, published by the Croatian weekly Globus, are the current media sensation in the Balkans.

Croatian defense ministry sources told Reuters in Zagreb on Wednesday they were authentic excerpts from wiretaps of hundreds of calls recorded by the Croatian military intelligence service, but there has been no comment from Serbia or Milosevic himself.

In parts, the scripts read like an afternoon TV soap opera, with the dry wit, fatherly wisdom and weary political woes of the Serbian strongman in the leading role. Milosevic, far from being a bug-eyed, mad dictator, says he is "sick and tired" of seeing himself on television. He is also exasperated by the hill-billy antics of the Bosnian Serbs and fondly sarcastic with members of his dysfunctional family.

Newspapers say "the Americans are furious" at the intelligence leak, especially the Clinton quotes. But since the two men had recently shaken hands at the signing of the peace deal for Bosnia, the civilized exchange hardly seems unusual.

Milosevic, however, is due to go on trial next week before the U.N. tribunal at The Hague on charges of crimes against humanity and genocide. Speculation is mounting that Clinton and other major Western political figures will be called to testify.

UP TO A POINT, SLOBODAN

"It's nice to hear your voice," Clinton tells Milosevic in one taped call from Air Force One at the end of a New Year's visit to U.S. troops newly installed in Bosnia in January 1996.

The Serbian leader has previously admitted to a top aide he is jealous of Clinton's planned stopover at Zagreb airport to meet Croatian President Franjo Tudjman but has been unable to persuade Clinton to also visit Belgrade.

"We support normalization of relations and I know it cannot go ahead without you," the U.S. president stresses during their brief conversation about implementing the Dayton peace accords, which Milosevic helped clinch to end the war in Bosnia.

"He spoke really nicely," a gratified Milosevic later tells his sidekick Milan Milutinovic, an indicted co-conspirator who is still at large and serving as president of Serbia.

Milutinovic, also known disparagingly to U.S. negotiators as "Tunafish," quips that Clinton must have hid in the plane's toilet to make the call, so as not to be overheard by Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, whom he calls "a real bitch."

The next day, Milosevic is stunned to see Politika, the leading pro-government daily in Belgrade, denouncing Clinton as a scandal-tainted draft dodger looking for photo opportunities.

When he rings up to blow a fuse, the editor, Dragan Hadzi Antic, has not even read his own paper. In a scene reminiscent of Evelyn Waugh's media satire "Scoop," Milosevic lets rip in street language as Antic cowers.

"For Christ's sake! You can't let them do as they please. Politika is considered the mouthpiece of the government and there you go and slag off Clinton!" Milosevic complains.

Correcting course drastically, Politika prints an extremely positive editorial about the U.S. president on the following day, a volte face remarked on at the time by opposition media.

The previous month, Milosevic saw his triumphant appearance in Paris for the Dayton signing ceremony put at risk by Bosnian Serbs who were defiantly holding two French pilots downed during NATO strikes in the autumn.

He complains to army chief of staff Momcilo Perisic that the Bosnian Serbs had always put Belgrade in a terrible negotiating position with their actions.

"What the (expletive) do they need these two pilots for? And now they are jerking us around with this. Let them find where the pilots are!"

THE SOPRANOS OF SERBIA

Records of his domestic phone calls are by turns tender and hilarious, as Milosevic, sounding like the harassed Mafia don played by James Gandolfini in the TV hit "The Sopranos," deals with the overdeveloped egos of his wife, son and daughter.

Son Marko, a nightclub owner who has now fled to Central Asia, emerges as a Narcissus obsessed about his jug ears -- which he is going to have surgically corrected -- and his teeth -- which he is going to have replaced.

He also plans to buy sets of colored contact lenses to match his clothes.

"You're awfully skinny, every guy your age looks that way," Milosevic tells his son in an attempt to head off the ear surgery. "As soon as you fill out everything will fall into place. I looked even worse when I was thin."

In January 1997, Marko has a new house with a swimming pool, which he keeps heated to 38 degrees Celsius.

"You're a fool, man. That's not healthy," says Milosevic, quickly giving up the argument and passing the phone to "mummy."

Daughter Marija, mostly complaining about business problems at her television station, has a new puppy so smart it can almost talk. But Milosevic has other concerns.

"Please tell (Serbian TV) to get me off the news bulletin, for chrissakes. I am sick and tired of seeing myself...tell them it's enough...I think God and the people are sick and tired of me. I am too."

 

[Klodomir]

Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
Milosevic is a political victim , too many bastards like him ( from all the world ,including States and europe ) are walking free

That's going a bit far, I think. Just because others are getting off easy doesn't mean that he isn't guilty.

 

[IvanClaytonJnr]

i still think USA/NATO/whoever should't have use bombardment on innocent civilians in Belgrad ... Yes maybe Milocevic is guilty , but he's a Player who got into wrong place and in wrong time , 70 % of all political leaders in Africa , S.America , Ex-USSR , ex-Yougo countries easily could be judged like Slobodan Milocevic . He's not hitler afterall , but a lot of them are in mid-east , they even can call themselves ' peace makers '
Jews , arabs , white , black , hispanics, no fucking diference : only care about a race , with fury and hateness in thier eyes .......Fucking nazi , i hope they'll give u aushvitz
Just give peace a fucking miserable chance ..!!!!>>!!!!!

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

people are strange.

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and your heart beats so slow through the sleet and driving snow, across the fields of mourning lights in the distance...
ME! all day, every day!
"...a poptart in pants..." -- elizabeth

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Originally posted by U2girl:

Call me old-fashioned or idealistic, but i can't imagine why or how anyone could be capable of such evil acts.

I feel the same way. I've just been watching some news coverage of Milosevic's trial for war crimes. Some of the evidence the lawyers were presenting was absolutely horrific and I kept thinking that they won't even be showing the most shocking evidence on television. It's completely beyond my comprehension that someone could do what he's done.

I don't think you're idealistic or old-fashioned for feeling this way. I think it's just that the majority of people have never even considered hurting someone in the ways you mentioned. For most people, it just doesn't cross our minds and so it's hard to imagine how someone else could think about it. I think the only time I could imagine hurting another person is if I had to in order to defend someone else. And even then, I don't know if I could.

What was the title of this post? What's the world coming to? Good question. That saying *the future's in our hands* is true though. If we want to change things, if we want to make the world a better place, it's in our power to do it.

 

[U2girl]

Thanks.

I know people aren't supposed to be revengeful or wishing for bad things to happen to others, but reading stuff i mentioned above somehow pisses me off inside and i think:
I wish someone would beat the crap out of that "person" and then put him away in jail for good.

The other day, it happened in my city, there was an article about an 11-year old robbing people with a gun! Or, if you can believe it, a 6 year old threatened people with a knife...go figure.
Aren't they supposed to know nothing about weapons or violence at that age?

 

[Lemonite]

True.. I agree..

Quickly.. While you bring up Milosevich.. I just read that Clinton was apparently Intimate 'Buds' with him.. Sneaking into the Lavatory on Air Force One to phone him with the line "Hey! It's been too long since I've talked to You".

Back to the subject.. I am absolutely horrified by such actions, I don't quite think I could deal with it if it were to happen to a loved one of mine.. Much less if I were one to get raped.. Geezus..

L.Unplugged

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Originally posted by Lemonite:


Quickly.. While you bring up Milosevich.. I just read that Clinton was apparently Intimate 'Buds' with him.. Sneaking into the Lavatory on Air Force One to phone him with the line "Hey! It's been too long since I've talked to You".

We've already done the *sarcasm doesn't come across well over the internet* thing - so is that just a joke?

And if it's not, what's your source?

 

[Lilly]

About a month ago a 17 year old boy strangled his 13 year old sister to death. It's shock and horror and rage and then, like in everything else, time goes on and 3you cope with it. That's where our world is now and where it will probably be for a long, long time.

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*You're very kind. Most people laugh when they see my googly eye.*

flibbertigibbet

The Edge, it's a direct object.

"I'm forgetful. But above all, I'm lazy."

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by U2girl:
Did you ever think about that - when you hear about rapings or child abuse or murders...
Call me old-fashioned or idealistic, but i can't imagine why or how anyone could be capable of such evil acts.

Old-fashioned or idealistic? If it's old-fashioned or idealistic to know what's right and wrong, then yes. It's sad, but the world is getting too far away from right vs. wrong.
What's the world going to?
I think about that when I think about rapings or child abuse or murders or drug abuse or abortion or promiscuity or greed or infidelity or hatred and the list goes on and on

This world we live in is going to the dogs...

We have turned our backs on God.

 

[anitram]

Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
Yes maybe Milocevic is guilty , but he's a Player who got into wrong place and in wrong time

1. He IS guilty.
2. He created the place and the time. The 250,000-300,000 people who died in the balkans are the ones who "got into: the wrong place at the wrong time. He, the butcher, created it.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

This world we live in is going to the dogs...

We have turned our backs on God.

I'm curious about this one 80s. Do you think the world would be better if people were more focused on God? And do you mean the Christian religion, or any religion and its 'God' if it has one? How do you think it would make the world better?

 

[IvanClaytonJnr]

God is a private thing , and absolutely don't understand how do you believe in all these fiction books , in bible !!!??? Despite the fact , it's overwriting again and again and again ,, morons , stupid fools who just want to live like slaves , fuck you Bono , with all your prayers , religious nut who just rubbed a full continental on millions of dollars , and ' proudly ' speaking about 'save the world , Africa Debt '

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees:
I'm curious about this one 80s. Do you think the world would be better if people were more focused on God? And do you mean the Christian religion, or any religion and its 'God' if it has one? How do you think it would make the world better?

As a Christian, I do mean we have turned our backs on Jesus. I think the world would be a better place if people turned to Christ for guidance, because Christians have the Holy Spirit inside them and want to do what's right.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by IvanClaytonJnr:
God is a private thing , and absolutely don't understand how do you believe in all these fiction books , in bible !!!??? Despite the fact , it's overwriting again and again and again ,, morons , stupid fools who just want to live like slaves , fuck you Bono , with all your prayers , religious nut who just rubbed a full continental on millions of dollars , and ' proudly ' speaking about 'save the world , Africa Debt '

Ivan, not only did you just insult Bono, you insulted several people on this forum. You need to deal with your "hatred of religion" issues.

 

[Sicy]

Ivan you need to learn some tact.

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees:
I'm curious about this one 80s. Do you think the world would be better if people were more focused on God? And do you mean the Christian religion, or any religion and its 'God' if it has one? How do you think it would make the world better?

As a Christian, I do mean we have turned our backs on Jesus. I think the world would be a better place if people turned to Christ for guidance, because Christians have the Holy Spirit inside them and want to do what's right.

Hmmm - but does being religious automatically make you a better person? Is that what you're saying?

I'm an atheist but i know that the things i mentioned above are wrong, (and that's putting it mildly) and i know each person should strive to be at his best, to be a better personality.
I may not be the smartest or the most articulate person on this forum, and i may make mistakes here and real life (no one's perfect), but i think i have the common sense to tell right from wrong.

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 02-16-2002).]

 

[STING2]

IVAN,
Where are you originally from? Where were you born?

 

[IvanClaytonJnr]

Berlin ,i was born there , but i'm not german , i'm a half u.s.+irish+english+spanish , half jewish+russian+uzbekistan , i'm a full mix

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by U2girl:
Hmmm - but does being religious automatically make you a better person? Is that what you're saying?

I'm an atheist but i know that the things i mentioned above are wrong, (and that's putting it mildly) and i know each person should strive to be at his best, to be a better personality.
I may not be the smartest or the most articulate person on this forum, and i may make mistakes here and real life (no one's perfect), but i think i have the common sense to tell right from wrong.

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 02-16-2002).]

Nope, I'm not a better person as a Christian, not at all. It's just that as a Christian, I believe that Christ living inside a person gives them Christ's strength and righteous. No man is good. The Bible teaches that only people that are covered by the blood of Christ to wash away their sin have righteousness, but it is not the righteousness of man, but the righteousness of Christ. That's the point of the cross. God knows that in our own power, we are lost in our sin, and cannot be Holy. So He sent his Son to die so that all who accept may receive the Holy Spirit inside them. Therefore, when I am tempted, I don't need to fight the temptation on my own (because I usually lose if I'm relying on my own willpower), but I need to say honestly to God "God, I can't do it" and pray to him to take control. Only when I'm relying on Him totally am I in his will.
I do have a question for you. I know from reading other posts of yours that you appear to have high moral values. I applaud that. But my question is this; if there is no God, that obviously means that there is no black and white as far as morals go - everything is relative. So, if everything is relative, why is there a right and a wrong? Why not just live the motto "Do what feels good"? That would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?

 

[U2girl]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
[/b]

Nope, I'm not a better person as a Christian, not at all. It's just that as a Christian, I believe that Christ living inside a person gives them Christ's strength and righteous. No man is good. The Bible teaches that only people that are covered by the blood of Christ to wash away their sin have righteousness, but it is not the righteousness of man, but the righteousness of Christ. That's the point of the cross. God knows that in our own power, we are lost in our sin, and cannot be Holy. So He sent his Son to die so that all who accept may receive the Holy Spirit inside them. Therefore, when I am tempted, I don't need to fight the temptation on my own (because I usually lose if I'm relying on my own willpower), but I need to say honestly to God "God, I can't do it" and pray to him to take control. Only when I'm relying on Him totally am I in his will.
I do have a question for you. I know from reading other posts of yours that you appear to have high moral values. I applaud that. But my question is this; if there is no God, that obviously means that there is no black and white as far as morals go - everything is relative. So, if everything is relative, why is there a right and a wrong? Why not just live the motto "Do what feels good"? That would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Ok - thanks for explaining - i understand.

High moral values? Me?
Well gosh, thanks.

Where did you see that in my posts, if i may ask?

Hmmm-that's a good question. IMO black and white exists - that's why morals exist. There's things that are wrong by nature, things that are considered wrong commonly by all the people universally. Partially it's that, and partially one develops morals by their parents, their environment...

"Do what feels good"? It doesn't work that way IMO - almost always you have to consider other people with your decisions/actions. I think that everyone has their own set of values, and that all humans deep down inside have a common sense of telling between right/wrong, and each person has a guilty conscience to tell him when he/she did something wrong.
(of course, i'm talking about average, normal people - not people who do things that were mentioned here)

But on the other hand, no one is perfect. Even though i believe people have the inner, natural given goodness towards each other and that no one is born evil - you can't really learn and progress without making mistakes - you can't grow inside.

Each person has to balance the good things and the bad things he does along the way at his/her best abilities, with as much consideration to others as possible. Ultimately, it's me alone that will have to deal with the consequences of my decision, and i have to "check" the things i do with myself - my morals, if you will. First and foremost, i have to be ok with who i am, and then interact with the world. It's tough - i believe that people learn to do that their whole life - i don't think anyone can ever fully figure it out.

Does that answer your question? You sure made me look deep inside for this one.

[This message has been edited by U2girl (edited 02-17-2002).]