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Old 12-25-2001, 03:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holy John:
Hehehe.. so according to Lemonite, the Democrats are the absolute type of the primitive Communists and maybe close friends or were once part of the Soviets, and the Republicans are the absolute freedom, the absolute truth and, would I say.... our messiah, our saviors, our heroes. And the working class is just a pain in the ass.

cheers


Ah. My Dearie Holy John.. the question had already been answered, both in a slanted (Gonzo) way and an objective (Popkid) way.. As I stated in my post, 'stereotypes' afloat means that a stereotype is to follow...

Hehehe.. I like it how you will rip me for not being 'objective', when objective answers have already been posted.. yet you take what i said and warp it to become more extreme using swear words.. (Didn't your business ethics professor teach you anything about credibility) That's a healthy way to chide someone for having a bit of enjoyment in a post that is all but done what the initial questioner asked by the time I posted.. I waited for someone to explain it.. then jumped in...

But honestly, how far off am I? or the many many people that make the same sort of generalizations.. What have the democrats done for the poor.. Have the Blacks gotten anywhere better than they were twenty years ago.. seriously.. any ground?.. While at the same time, the Republicans make efforts to help everyone.. it just happens that with equaling up tax rates.. the rich will have to pay significantly less.. but everyone is paying the same 'ratio' of their money.. Hence because of this.. teh Republicans become painted as Monsters.. as they have been called here before..

Hope this helps.. and a bit of objectivity to those who apparently want it. Smile folks..

Sweeping Generalizations Unite

Cheers and Merry Christmas :-)
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Old 12-25-2001, 04:06 AM   #17
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I am reminded of the saying (rephrased as I cannot recall the ACTUAL saying if it even exists) "Democracy is pain in the a**, but it works better than anything else".

I whole heartedly agree with this. I remember the whole election process we witnessed this last year. In a government without the checks and balances that ours has that could have been a very very bad situation. This country has never had a military coup or take over much less anything nearly as destructive or nightmarish. Whatever side of the fence you land on, or if you land on the fence polotics is something we should care about. We should be educated. I encourage partisianship as people with strong beliefs are active. They may not be the most opened minded but most people in general aren't.

I think an interesting point that was brought up earlier in the thread was the demographics that the parties appeal and campaign too. I think we can credit the renewed awareness of this to Bill Clinton. Rarely does a polotician bring about such passion from people whether it be support or anger. In all reality these are the same emotions, just differently manifested. I also remember seeing a map displaying how the votes in this last presidential election played out. Democratic votes tended to come from very populate urban areas where as Republicans controled most of the land mass, but not a majority of the actual population. This is interesting as it seems that lower class seem to blindly follow the Democratic leadership and vote that ticket while the middle and upper class seem to do exactly the opposite. I think an even interesting study would be to break down Democrats and Republicans into age and gender groups. I would venture to say that many (if not a majority) of single women under 30 tend to believe in things that are part of the Democratic platform. I have seen surveys where that completely shifts when it comes to married women. Is this economcially based? I think it might be. Women are the swing vote in American polotics. Can we say a second term for Clinton? Whoever wants the power needs to appeal to single women in this country. Especially when 80% of people never vote.

I think American polotics is fascinating and an amazing system. That it was dreamed up over 200 years ago from scratch is a mind blow.

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Old 12-25-2001, 04:09 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by gilmer24:
I may be new at this, but I don't understand why people are ripping Lemonite when what Doc Gonzo said was a lot more controversial
Controversy is relative and based completely on your point of view.

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Old 12-25-2001, 04:23 AM   #19
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I expect the Democratic and Republican parties to disappear within 20 years.

That's how dead they are. ::yawning smiley::
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Old 12-27-2001, 08:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmb737:
I am reminded of the saying (rephrased as I cannot recall the ACTUAL saying if it even exists) "Democracy is pain in the a**, but it works better than anything else".
I believe Sir Winston Churchill said something among the lines of: "Democracy is the worst form of politics apart for all the other ones".

My favourite is: "Democracy is nothing more than two wolves and one goat deciding which of the three is going to be eaten".
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Old 12-28-2001, 04:32 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Foxxern:
In fact, you are quite far off. During the boom years of the past, racial bounds have begun to break down. The average black American now lives far better than ever before, and there are more blacks in the middle- and upper-classes than at any point in history. The mid- and late- 90s were especially good to most poor minorities, who found new, higher-paying jobs in various sectors.

The Republicans make an effort to help everyone? Well if they do, they fail miserably. During the go-go Reagonomics 80s, when conservative economics were the word, everyone certainly did not succeed. As the upper-classes drove a grossly overvalued stock market, most members of the working-class fell victim to downsizing, mergers, and the rapid transfer of jobs from the US into the Third World. Certainly this created (horrible wage, poor condition) jobs in various developing countries, but the number of jobs lost here in a small amount of time meant that if you weren't rich, you weren't doing so well. In fact, the shameful part is that real income (factoring in inflation) actually fell during the 80s! Imagine that--the average worker could buy less in 1989 than they could in 1980. That hardly seems like helping everyone.


hah.. Then why are the Blacks complaining to no end how 'bad' they got it, How they still claim racism in everything they say, And.. Why then is there still affirmative action.. That's just racism staring us in the face.. And also.. If the blacks were doing better.. then jEssee jackson.. somewhat of a reverend.. or just maybe a slick talker... would not be needed.. Of course, they're better off, but they're still yelling and clamoring about the same things they were back in the day when Malcolm X was killing whites.. That's what i meant.. not as much referring to statistical analysis of an excel spreadsheet.. though It's also because the blacks do not come to meet the republicans and their programs to help get thme into high managing jobs.. high profile positions.. cuz they lik ethe democrats who just 'give' things to them without any work.. welfare..

And I, as well as many an authors and analysts out there, though I don't have the articles on hand.. The reaganonimics started to finally unfold in the early 90's.. It wasn't Bill Clinton's programs who brought all this economic success.. He's a large large factor of why we have such a bad economy now.. Reagan. bush.. they instituted the programs the economy needed to get it out of the recession and brought the high bull market... reagan inherited the recession.. they had to increase interest rates cuz of the inflation carter brought... The economy was coming back during bush's 'running time'.. He was saying it was coming back.. and I remember a newspaper after clinton got elected.. 'Economy is Back'.. making the 'reading' world think that clinton... or thedemocrats brought the economy back.. Look a little deeper into these things, and you'll see that reagan is who actually gave us the high times during the 90's.. sorry to bust your tome of statements.. but it's true

The republicans give the tools, the means for people to become better off.. In this they also give the responsibility to the people to do somehting with themselves.. Not a callous position in the least.. Just a common sensical capitalistic position where people have the opportunities.. and this doesn't mean that help isn't provided it is.. Everyone just cna't be helped to such a same level.. communism.... What many republicans feared if Gore were to be put into office...
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Old 12-29-2001, 03:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lemonite:
But honestly, how far off am I? or the many many people that make the same sort of generalizations.. What have the democrats done for the poor.. Have the Blacks gotten anywhere better than they were twenty years ago.. seriously.. any ground?.. While at the same time, the Republicans make efforts to help everyone.. it just happens that with equaling up tax rates.. the rich will have to pay significantly less.. but everyone is paying the same 'ratio' of their money.. Hence because of this.. teh Republicans become painted as Monsters.. as they have been called here before..
In fact, you are quite far off. During the boom years of the past, racial bounds have begun to break down. The average black American now lives far better than ever before, and there are more blacks in the middle- and upper-classes than at any point in history. The mid- and late- 90s were especially good to most poor minorities, who found new, higher-paying jobs in various sectors.

The Republicans make an effort to help everyone? Well if they do, they fail miserably. During the go-go Reagonomics 80s, when conservative economics were the word, everyone certainly did not succeed. As the upper-classes drove a grossly overvalued stock market, most members of the working-class fell victim to downsizing, mergers, and the rapid transfer of jobs from the US into the Third World. Certainly this created (horrible wage, poor condition) jobs in various developing countries, but the number of jobs lost here in a small amount of time meant that if you weren't rich, you weren't doing so well. In fact, the shameful part is that real income (factoring in inflation) actually fell during the 80s! Imagine that--the average worker could buy less in 1989 than they could in 1980. That hardly seems like helping everyone.



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Old 12-29-2001, 11:02 AM   #23
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AHHH!!!! America is a multi-party system. Unfortunately, we have forgotten that multi implies we can have WAY more than 2 parties. I am an independent. Meaning I take from both major parties' ideas and add a few of my own in there and voila! a new party. Unfortunately, in America you have to get 10% of the votes to officially get government funding. Without gov't funding, it is EXTREMELY difficult to compete with the multi-billion dollar having big two parties. So, what ends up happening is that even though people may want to vote for the 3rd party individual, but it may endanger their best interests (i.e the Gore, Bush, Nader election. Everybody knew that it was going to be a tight race. People who would be voting for Gore would be democrats who tend to be more liberal than republicans. Nader was on the green party (basically a democrat, but supports saving the environment over everything else) so people who voted for Nader to try to get him 10% so a 3rd party can have $ took away from Gore, thus the losing. And of course, Nader didn't get 10% of the votes and we ended up with Bush (who is doing a lovely job).) They differ in a few ways (oh yea, my explainations will probably be a bit bias though I'll try hard not to be):
--A traditional republican would say: cheaper taxes, but not in any significant amount. programs such as welfare are good. they also tend to be 45+ year old white male Christians. Republicans tend to be conservatives.
--A traditional democrat would say rograms are good, but let's take the taxes that we could cut and pay for them. religious fundamentalism doesn't seem to run as rampant here. Democrats tend to be more liberal.
--I say: programs are nice, but nobody is using them and I'm sick of paying for them altogether. I want a tax break, but I'm not willing to sacrifice my quality of life to get one, so figure out an acceptable budget and then cut taxes. Government, stay out of my day to day life (get out of our schools damn it!!). Religion is nice, but let's keep it more of a personal thing. We are a non-secular country. I'm a liberal independent.

Hmmm...I hope that hepled you out a bit.

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[This message has been edited by Lilly (edited 12-29-2001).]
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Old 01-04-2002, 12:18 AM   #24
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Well, Lemonite, many of the black people who do complain that they don't have equal rights are usually wrong. They are living way better than they ever have, and some of them are stupid enough to make dumb claims like wanting compensation for their ancestors' slavery. Many minorities have been screwed in the past, and they are the only ones who still complain, a lot. Of course, most of them aren't like this, just the dumb ones.
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Old 01-04-2002, 01:25 PM   #25
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Theyre all a bunch of losers.
I voted for Nader.
Actually i dont like him much either, but he was the lesser of 3 evils. Sigh.
I have a really bad feeling about what is ahppening to this country. It isnt as free as many people think.

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Old 01-04-2002, 02:40 PM   #26
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Those who say that Democrats and Republicans are essentially the same and agree on all major issues have obviously not spent any time reading newspapers, watching debates, or taking the time to learn about issues.

Take, for example, the tax cut. Democrats were strenously opposed to the cut that was pushed through by the Republicans. They were not opposed to a tax cut, just one in which 2% of a 1.4 trillion dollar cut went to working people. The end result is deficit spending, which in terms means cuts in important programs, and little to no money for prescription drug benefits, school construction, and numerous other policy objectives.

Democrats are hardly the"liberal wing of the Republican party" - nothing is worse than people who paint with broad strokes and don't know how to paint.

If you look at the Democratic party, you'll see it runs a wide gamut on the political spectrum. There are conservative Democrats like Zell Miller of Georgia, and liberal Democrats like Paul Wellstone, and everything in between.

And as for danospano's odd numbers - how do you figure that since less than half the people vote, 15% must be D and 15% must be R? Back up your math, kid.

And for those who don't vote because they're too busy working minimum wage jobs, I'd urge them to take a look at who proposes annual minimum wage increases, and who opposes them, and then stop hiding behind excuses, do your civic duty, and vote. It's not a right, it's a responsibility
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Old 01-04-2002, 04:25 PM   #27
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I would have to agree with devalera...there are major differences between the Democrats and the Republicans. Why people have been decrying them as the same was due to the Clinton-style Democrat, which was more libertarian (deregulate business, deregulate social) than liberal (regulate business, deregulate social). Al Gore, obviously, shared a lot of views with Clinton.

In usual party loyalty, the liberal wing has pretty much been silent, and it hasn't helped that Republicans dominated most of the Clinton-era Legislature. Rather than be obstructionist, the liberal wing was silent again, since they knew the Republicans would never go for an obvious liberal platform.

So, since most of you here are about an average of 20 years old here, you will not remember the liberal aspects of the Democratic Party, because the last twenty years have been dominated by Republicans and Clinton.

Melon

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Old 01-06-2002, 01:01 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
Basically, they are scared shitless of someone like Ralph Nader getting up in front of the TV audience on the televised debate and making everyone painfully aware of how corrupt and ineffective both parties are.
damn straight! i'm only a democrat so i can vote in the primaries...since independents can't (another reason politics are fucked).

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Old 01-06-2002, 02:12 PM   #29
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benefits, school construction, and numerous her policy objectives.

Democrats are hardly the"liberal wing of the Republican party" - nothing is worse than people who paint with broad strokes and don't know how to paint.

If you look at the Democratic party, you'll see it runs a wide gamut on thespectrum. There are conservative Democrats like Zell Miller of Georgia, and liberal Democrats like Paul Wellstone, and everything in between.

And as for danospano's odd numbers - how do you figure that since less than half the people vote, 15% must be D and 15% must be R? Back up your math, kid.

And for those who don't vote because they're too busy working minimum wage jobs, I'd urge them to take a look at who proposes annual minimum wage increases, and who opposes them, and then stop hiding behind excuses, do your civic duty, and vote. It's not a right, it's a responsibility[/B][/QUOTE]


It's not only a responsibility it's a privilege we have as Americans. There are many in other countries who don't have it.
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Old 01-06-2002, 02:17 PM   #30
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Sorry devaleral I ment to post all of your message.
td
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