Angela Harlem said:
You're a bloody legend for trying, 80s! Thanks mate
Ok. I might be making grand generalisations, I do apologise because I know it doesn't apply to everyone and each denomination even is different and so on, but this is in general.
Yes, each denomination is different, but I think the real difference is in individuals. Individuals have different responses to different situations. Individuals also have different strengths and weaknesses. I may be strong in one area of the "Christian walk" and yet weak in an area that my friend has down pat.
Angela Harlem said:
Yet, under Christianity, we allow some groups to be denied equal treatment and love. We exclude. We say we love them, but not their sin. It doesn't just end there though, does it. See, according to Christians, we're all sinners. So why am I excluded from being treated so poorly for my sins (debating those is another paragraph, lol) when others are not? I am talkijng about gay people. I dont really want to, but it causes me neverending anguish. Seriously. So you, me, melon, pax, dave c, we're all sinners. Every single one of us in this forum. Bad arses. My sins are recognised and pointed out on request, but a gay person's has infected society to change the way we treat people. Society is ill with the mistreatment. We dont allow them the same God given rights we allow us. His and her sins (the gay person's) are worse, we can see that. They're effectively treated worse as a sole result of theirs. I'm only going to talk ariund in circles, I'm sure/hope this is clear enough, lol..
Good questions. The honest truth, and some people may not believe it, but it is true, is that the people around me whom I consider the strongest Christians do not hate gays, and do not treat them as if we hated them. Yes, we do consider homosexual relations a sin. But we don't go on the warpath. In fact, I have gone on record in these forums as saying that among the "sexual" sins, I consider adultery a much worse sin than homosexual relations - seriously; hearing about someone committing adultery makes me want to beat that person up - that's how much it infuriates me.
Having said that, yes there are many people who wear the label "Christian" who are quite mean and degrading toward gays. But that's wrong. I'd like you to consider something, please. The Bible says that Christians will be known by their "fruit". The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, kindness, and self-control. If a person lives a hateful life, like those who abuse and are mean to gays, I have to wonder if that person really is a Christian. Christians aren't perfect, and we will not always show all of those fruits. But if someone never shows theh fruit, I have real doubts about his/her Christianity.
All of this is really to implore you to judge Christianity not by those who wear the label like a nice accessory, but by:
1) Christ himself
2) His teachings
3) The Christians who DO live the Christian life, like Billy Graham and all the misisonaries who lay their lives on the line for God and man. Or even like my brother Rick, who, even though he has been jailed (in the US, no less) for sharing the Gospel continues to tell people about Christ because he loves them.
Now, to address the issue of why we deny the rights we let ourselves have. I'll address gay adoption first. Most Christians who oppose gay adoption feel the way that I do - that children should be raised by a mom and a dad who love them. People are different genders for a reason - part of that reason is so that they can make babies together. I feel that children need the parental influence of a loving male and a loving female. That's why I don't even support letting single people adopt, unless they are relatives of the father/mother, or unless requested by the parents.
And gay marriage? Well, I can only answer for myself here. On a non-religious, secular basis, I see nothing wrong with gay marriage. But you see, as everyone who knows me will attest, I don't usually deal with things on a "secular" basis. My Christian beliefs are so interwoven into the very fabric of who I am, I cannot separate my Christian beliefs from any other type of belief. It is all rolled in together into one package, a package called "Michael". Because of that, I honestly cannot throw my support behind anything that I feel God would not condone. However, because i realize that our society is largely a secular society, I do not make this a crusade of mine. Look around this forum, at the topics about gay marriage; you'll see a general absence of the presence of 80sU2isBest. I usually don't voice my opinion on gay marriage unless I am specifically asked.
Angela Harlem said:
So what is the difference between a 6 week old foetus, a thief, and a murderer? I didn't think mere man, any of us, could answer that. We can ponder and be human - like in our arrogance of assuming we might know. But it's playing games, isn't it? We dont know another's soul. We dont know the intricate and personal relationship any soul or person has with either JC himself, or God. Yet, we plant ourselves among that. Under Christianity. We decide on life, which is a gift given by something so much more powerful and knowing than us, so much more wise, we interfere and decide we can make decisions. How? Isn't judgement only to be done by God Himself? Is it not arrogance for man to assign any label to a fellow man - sinner or whatever? To judge, and then act on that judgement? To start messing with the very life which was given to us as a gift?
I am pro-life and anti-death penalty, but I can tell you why some Christians are pro-life and yet support the death penalty. First, I'll say that I know of no one who believes that a thief should get the death penalty. But as for murderers and rapists, there is a huge difference between them and unborn babies. Unborn babies are defenseless - they can't help themselves. People who are in jail for murder and rape have been convicted of the crime. Whether they did it or not, sometimes only they and God know. That is why I am against the death penalty - because I never want an innocent person to be put to death. I think that if everyone would really take that into consideration - the execution of an innocent person - we'd have a lot of changed minds about the death penalty. I'm not advocating letting them go, either. Lock `em up for life.
Angela Harlem said:
Isn't judgement only to be done by God Himself? Is it not arrogance for man to assign any label to a fellow man - sinner or whatever? To judge, and then act on that judgement?
Some judgment is only for God, such as judgment of a person's worth. I may think that a murderer is a low down dirty piece of filth who's not worth a dime, but God evidently disagrees; Christ died for that man every bit as much as he died for me.
However, there is some judgment that man is definitely called upon to make, such as the judgment between right and wrong, good and evil. Without that, how do we make laws? The laws that prohibit murder and rapists are based on the judgment that murder and rape are wrong, evil.
There's also a biblical difference between a Christian judging another Christian's behaviors and that of the world. In Corinthians, Paul tells Christians that we are to judge other Christians, we are to let them know if they are sinning. For instance, if my Christian friend is cheating on his wife, I have the responsibility to God, to my friend and to my friend's wife, to tell him that he is sinning against God and to stop. However, in that same passage, Paul tells Christians to leave the judgment of the non-Christian world to God. To me, this means that I'm not supposed to rag on a nonChristian for a specific sin - I am not to judge him for that. Notice I used the word "specific". Every one in the world sins, and it is sin that keeps people from communion with God. I believe that Iam supposed to tell the world to turn from its sin (again, not specific judgment of sin) and turn to Christ for redemption/salvation/cleansing.
To illustrate this dictinction between judgment types, read the following scenarios:
Christian A, talking to NonChristian: You dirty sinner, get down on your knees and pray for forgiveness. That adultery you've been engaging in has made you a marked man, buddy, straight to the fires of hell is where you're bound!
Christian B, talking to NonChristian: Everyone in the world sins. It is sin that separates people from God. Since God cannot abide in the presence of sin, The only way to be accepted by God is by having that sin forgiven and cast away by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ who, motivated by pure love, died upon the cross as a sacrifice for our sins.
Of course, some people will be offended even by approach #2. But the Bible tells us that the Gospel will be offensive to some people.
Anyway, I hope my long-windedness has helped in some way. I'm always happy to talk about issues of faith.