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Old 08-16-2002, 03:13 AM   #1
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What's the deal?

I meant to express a little while back, but never got the chance to:

often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides. i'm not ashamed of my beliefs, but that doesn't make me a bad person or anyone else who happens to share that same view.

have any of you heard of the phrase: loving the sinner but hating the sin ?
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Old 08-16-2002, 03:57 AM   #2
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Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by TripThruUreWires
often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides.
Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."

As for whether people at FYM are intolerant, well the only people I'm intolerant towards are those who are intolerant themselves. That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.

If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing. I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate, I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.
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Old 08-16-2002, 05:24 AM   #3
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People are certainly free to hold the belief that homosexuality is a sin. But if they don't want to be bothered about it, then they should keep that belief to themselves. If they are willing to "come out" (LOL!) against homosexuality, then they should realize that they will have to deal with lots of people who believe they are wrong.

If you can't take the heat, get out of FYM.

And "love the sinner, hate the sin" is one of those expressions you hear a lot about gay people, but no one ever really talks about spreading the love to serial killers and rapists. I've always thought that "love the sinner, hate the sin" is "Christians'" way of making themselves feel better about being homophobic.
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:44 AM   #4
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Re: Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."

No. No no no.

I believe drug use is a sin, but I don't necessarily fear or hold in contempt people who use drugs.
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Old 08-16-2002, 09:20 AM   #5
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hey, fizzy, people who believe it is a sin are not saying so out of contempt.
they take it from the Bible where it clearly states one man is not to sleep with another

I guess God is homophobic eh?
OR
he created male and female with compatible anatomy capable of reproduction and dislikes it when people ignore this very significant aspect of his creation

male/male partnerships are not meant to be. No body can look me straight in the face and tell me it is natural. Even if you look at it from an athiests point of view, believing in evolution.

Quite cleary, the male and female have evolved to reproduce. No where does nature intend males to mate with males...this simply does not work from a evolutionary point of view.

HOWEVER
before you all tear me a new one...

I am not homophobic
I even doubt God will keep them from heaven. I'd suggest that he'd very much prefer they stick with his original intentions but I can't see him casting them into hell because of it!!! God loves them just as much as he loves me.

I'm just not sure about the Bible anymore...I think somethings that are there were added by the ultra conservative catholic priests and monks of the middle ages.
I can't see an all loving God denying somebody heaven because they are gay.

anyway...that's it
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Old 08-16-2002, 10:50 AM   #6
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Homosexuality
Abortion.
Topics like these..are expolsive and volitale to some:idea:
They dont need to be.
I sorta agree w Bass.
I kinda understand Trip:idea:

That said Ive known both Hetro/Homosexuals both to have good and bad characters..

So in a nutshell-
What Bass said-sorta.

Peace
Out
DB9
:idea:
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:27 PM   #7
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Re: Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic. Homophobia is usually defined as "fear of or contempt for lesbians or gay men" so surely claiming homosexuality is a sin falls into the category of "contempt."

As for whether people at FYM are intolerant, well the only people I'm intolerant towards are those who are intolerant themselves. That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.

If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing. I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate, I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.
Exactly.

As for homosexuality, if you honestly believe it's a sin...*shrugs*. Whatever. I don't agree with you, because I really fail to see what is so "sinful" about homosexuality and have no problem with it, but you are entitled to your opinion, just like I'm entitled to mine.

Angela
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Old 08-16-2002, 01:54 PM   #8
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Paxetaurora said it best; if you can't take the heat, get out of FYM.

It is one thing to have controversial views, another is to have the forsight that because they ARE controversial a lot of people are not going to agree with you, possibly even flame you. From this, you can deduce whether or not your views are right and should be upheld by you, or that they are in fact wrong and FYM has served the purpose of altering your perceptions.

FYM is in the business of building and breaking religions, expanding and contracting the mind, solving problems and creating whole new ones. It is extremely taxing, both intellectualy and emotionally. Thus, its the very nature of the forum to be confrontational, angry and intensely passionate over a great number of things.

I'm all for attacking opinions, why on Earth not? Attacking people, is a whole other issue. You have to separate the opinion from the person, because more often than not, you will never fully know the person.

For instance, I do think that the view in question is homophobic, and it serves a homophobic purpose.

Challenge your perceptions, before your perceptions challenge you.

Ant.
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Old 08-16-2002, 02:04 PM   #9
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what is homosexuality... ?

i dont believe in the concept of sexuality ?

i dont believe in reality

did you know some animals were also gay ?

animals are sinners anyway
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Old 08-16-2002, 03:45 PM   #10
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for this particular issue, you have to realize the difference between disagreeing with homosexuality and being a homophobe. Disagreeing with homosexuality means you think, based on the Bible or natural law etc., that homosexuality is a sin. That's fine, I respect that even if I don't agree with it. Being a homophobe means you say stupid crap like "All fags just need to get back to their fairie interior decorating and leave the rest of us alone." I don't support that.

As for FYM, yep, if you can't handle the heat etc. etc. I actually like the heat because it really makes me examine myself-- look at issues from a different point of view or try to defend my own beliefs with something more substantial than "Because I said so and therefore you're wrong."
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Old 08-16-2002, 08:23 PM   #11
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Homosexuality is not a choice, so if infact God created all living things, he purposely created homosexuals. Following this logic, why should God have a problem with homosexuality?
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Old 08-16-2002, 09:00 PM   #12
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Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by TripThruUreWires
I meant to express a little while back, but never got the chance to:

often, i don't like how this board is so one-sided on certain issues and intolerant of certain beliefs (which, i might add is ironic considering argument they are trying to convey). this is usually the case when it comes to homosexuality. why is it that i always feel an individual on this board cannot hold the stance that perhaps homosexuality is a sin, (and therefore not be advocated) without being deemed homophobic or such? don't get me wrong, i've seen intolerance on this board...but that goes for all sides. i'm not ashamed of my beliefs, but that doesn't make me a bad person or anyone else who happens to share that same view.

have any of you heard of the phrase: loving the sinner but hating the sin ?
I think what we often forget is that homosexuals are real people with real emotions. It isn't a political movement, like choosing to be a Republican or a Democrat. It isn't a religious movement, like choosing to be a Catholic or a Buddhist. It isn't an ideology, like being a liberal or a conservative. It isn't a lifestyle, like being a punk or a prep.

And, yet, if you hear some of the language emanating from anti-gay religions, it eliminates the entire human element. Dehumanize your enemy and you make it easy to hate. Homosexuals want the same thing as everyone else: to have a life, to love, have a family, etc. They just want to share their life with someone of the same sex. You'd be surprised how many homosexuals are Christian, and how many would still be Christian if they weren't cast out.

"Loving the sinner and hating the sin" is just like "separate but equal"--a figment of imagination designed to absolve the oppressor from guilt, while still maintaining the sense of dominance.

I will just ask you this: if your sexuality were forbidden by religion, what would you do? Would you suddenly be able to turn off what you feel? Would you suppress what you feel? Would you feel comfortable with how you are treated in society? Would you be satisfied, knowing that you will never be able to love anyone? Would you be satisfied with how your religion would treat you?

Do I make you uncomfortable? I have no problems with you disagreeing, but expect others not to follow suit.

Melon
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Old 08-16-2002, 09:14 PM   #13
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Old 08-16-2002, 09:28 PM   #14
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Re: Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by melon


"Loving the sinner and hating the sin" is just like "separate but equal"--a figment of imagination designed to absolve the oppressor from guilt, while still maintaining the sense of dominance.
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Old 08-17-2002, 06:51 PM   #15
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Re: Re: What's the deal?

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Firstly, I believe that if someone thinks homosexuality is a sin then they are homophobic.
that is a f*cked up statement in itself, and i think even those individuals who disagree with my stance would at least agree with me here. rash and idiotic statements such as yours merely go to validate my point. the second someone disagrees with homosexuality in here, they are automatically "homophobic". i do NOT hold cotempt for any human being who leads a gay lifestyle. i have never ever uttered some of the hateful words often used in reference to gay people, nor have i embraced what i even feel are unfair stereotypes. i'm not out to judge homosexuals. that's not my place. i'm simply a person who lives by faith (and not blindly) in my God and His word, and at the same time i understand that not everyone will agree with me. that's fine. you or anyone else for that matter can argue and discuss your own stance on the issue as much you desire...i have absolutely no problem with that. i CAN take the "heat". however, no one has the right to label me or anyone a "homophobe" or a "bad person" unless it's well-deserved! and yet, so many of you do in your blind passion. that's all i'm saying.




Quote:
That means I don't sit back and listen to racist or sexist or homophobic comments because I think that listening to those comments without opposing them implies that I agree with them.
that's fine. no problem.

Quote:
If people speaking out against prejudice makes those who hold prejudiced views feel less able to express them then I think it's a positive thing.
me too.

Quote:
I think we should all be able to have reasonable discussions in which people with vastly different opinions can participate
ditto.

Quote:
I just don't think that homophobia, racism, sexism or any other prejudice have any place in those discussions.
me neither.


btw, i do admire the way in which melon argues his points and presents his opinions (despite the fact that i may not agree with him at times). he's able to keep a cool head and maintain his dignity without compromising his argument, unlike some people here.
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