What would it take...... - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-04-2002, 06:10 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


Yes, the 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudi. Their motives are murky at best. But the vast majority of recruits into groups like Al-Qaeda are from areas where people have no other option than to join some sort of group to take care of them. If we help give people options other than "kill yourself", then we might get somewhere.
People join gangs because they lack family or economic support - they have nowhere else to go.

People join Al-Qaeda because they are taught that killing infidels is a holy calling. They are not interested in knowing where you come from or what you believe
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:14 PM   #17
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,338
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


People join Al-Qaeda because they are taught that killing infidels is a holy calling. They are not interested in knowing where you come from or what you believe

Um, it's what you believe (or don't) that makes you an infidel.

And then why are most of their targets American if they don't care where you came from?
__________________

__________________
martha is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:15 PM   #18
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


I think we need to closely examine the way in which our money is being spent over there. I'm not in a position to give specifics, but I think that people over there don't need more money, but better management of the money that is already there. We need to have a genuine feeling that we want to help the people there. That would be a huge step forward.

Am I saying that we shouldn't fight at all? Of course not. There are always people who, for whatever reason, cannot be reasoned with. Unfortunately, it becomes a situation where its either us or them. But we have to understand that the vast majority of people, even those who are recruited by terrorists, are not like that. They can learn that America is not evil, if we prove it by changing the economic and political system that is currently weighted against them.
I like the two pronged approach. I still wonder how much aid we have to give to other nations though.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:17 PM   #19
Refugee
 
Foxxern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,284
Local Time: 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


People join gangs because they lack family or economic support - they have nowhere else to go.

People join Al-Qaeda because they are taught that killing infidels is a holy calling. They are not interested in knowing where you come from or what you believe
I don't believe this is so. Most people who join Al-Qaeda do so for economic support. After they join, then they are taught that killing Americans will benefit them. Honestly, why would a shopkeeper's son in Kabul really have any interest in taking down America? They wouldn't unless someone gave them a reason to do so. The desire to kill oneself is something that comes either out of desperation, or persuasion. It would be hard for a religion to survive if it actually taught that suicide was a good thing.
__________________
Foxxern is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:20 PM   #20
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Um, it's what you believe (or don't) that makes you an infidel.
In Islam, there are three types of people. Believers, those who will become believers and infidels. As a Christian, I fall in this last catagory.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
And then why are most of their targets American if they don't care where you came from?
I don't think I can fully answer this question in a couple of lines, so I will get back to you when I have more time.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:20 PM   #21
Refugee
 
Foxxern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,284
Local Time: 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I like the two pronged approach. I still wonder how much aid we have to give to other nations though.
Well, I don't think we should just give them aid. Giving someone something like that is almost a form of putting them down. We can't throw money at the problem. I think we have to literally work with them on the problem, giving our suggestions, but ultimately letting them come up with a way to improve their lives. They know their own culture much better than we know it, and they will know best how to improve their situation. I think we can help provide the resources they need, however.
__________________
Foxxern is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:22 PM   #22
Refugee
 
Foxxern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,284
Local Time: 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
In Islam, there are three types of people. Believers, those who will become believers and infidels. As a Christian, I fall in this last catagory.
Are you saying that Muslims consider all non-Muslims to be evil and deserving of immediate death? I'm pretty sure my Muslim friends would beg to differ.
__________________
Foxxern is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:26 PM   #23
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


Are you saying that Muslims consider all non-Muslims to be evil and deserving of immediate death? I'm pretty sure my Muslim friends would beg to differ.
How Muslims treat infidels varies. I think it is well accepted that the majority of Muslims are not violent, kill non-believer types.

I think our discussion dealt with the extremists within Islam.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:35 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Frankly, other than a slightly longer wait at the airport , I haven't noticed a depravation of civil liberties.

The Patriot Act, for starters. Big Brother is watching you.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:38 PM   #25
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:27 AM
Re: Re: What would it take......

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
[B]

Are you saying that if we don't follow our president lock-step into the quagmire, we don't support our goverment?]
DO not put words into my mouth. I believe I did start a thread saying that disagreeing with the president was "not anti-American.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
And here's a question back for you: How many of these inane "terror reports" have ever panned out? Do you think we should shit ourselves on the off-chance that the detainees aren't jerking our chains just to see us crapping out over nothing]


What I do know is that there was plenty of evidence to put two and two together to figure out September 11. But somehow the ball was dropped despite clear evidence.

I also know Gertz is an expert in this field and has been an outspoken critic of how the ball was dropped prior to 9/11. Since he is intelligent and an expert, I doubt that he would put such a thing into the newspaper today lightly.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
To answer your question: NO. Some vague threat against my workplace isn't enough for me to support getting dragged into questionable alliances and giving up my Constitutional rights.
What Constitutional Rights have you given up? Please, be specific. Thank you for your answer to my question.

I am sure we both can agree that we hope it is not some "vague" threat like the "vague" threat of high jackings a year ago.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:40 PM   #26
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 940
Local Time: 03:27 PM
Obviously the US has to use the sword, but also the pen. Its kinda like the whole plan is to kill every terrorist that pops up, but do nothing to stop them from popping up. Meanwhile actions like attacking Iraq are only going to double, triple the lines down at the old local terrorist recruitment office.

Afghanistan was the right move.

Iraq without the UN is a very bad move.

Dealing with the reasons why there is so much hate for the US in the middle east (not necessarily by changing policy, some maybe) would be an excellent move.

Wealthy Western nations taking care of other regions now will save countries like the US from having to deal with, say Africa, as the next 'middle east' in 20 years time.

More Powell, less Rumsfeld.

More of all of the above and the US could turn it all into something really good. That would make me support the US Govt. At the moment, it's 98% 'Sword', which is only going to fix immediate problems.
__________________
TylerDurden is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:45 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden
Obviously the US has to use the sword, but also the pen. Its kinda like the whole plan is to kill every terrorist that pops up, but do nothing to stop them from popping up. Meanwhile actions like attacking Iraq are only going to double, triple the lines down at the old local terrorist recruitment office.
I agree...we need more than dropping food packages on people. I just wonder how much more money we have to give.

Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

Afghanistan was the right move.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

Iraq without the UN is a very bad move.
I agree. Unless, clear proven links to Al-qaeda are present.


Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

Dealing with the reasons why there is so much hate for the US in the middle east (not necessarily by changing policy, some maybe) would be an excellent move.
Again...is this done through more foreign aid?


Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

More Powell, less Rumsfeld.
I wish Colin Powell were president. Unfortunately, he will never get his party's nomination due to his beliefs on certain issues.

Quote:
Originally posted by TylerDurden

More of all of the above and the US could turn it all into something really good. That would make me support the US Govt. At the moment, it's 98% 'Sword', which is only going to fix immediate problems.
Best post of the day to this thread. Tips hat to Tyler.

Peace to all.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:48 PM   #28
Refugee
 
Foxxern's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Illinois, USA
Posts: 1,284
Local Time: 09:27 AM
Re: Re: Re: What would it take......

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
What Constitutional Rights have you given up? Please, be specific. Thank you for your answer to my question.
These two are particularly disconcerting from the Patriot Act:
  • Allowing the federal government to detain non-U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism for up to seven days without specific charges.
  • Authorization of "roving wiretaps," so that law enforcement officials can get court orders to wiretap any phone a suspected terrorist would use.

Yes, I realize that wiretaps are nothing new. I just wonder what constitutes a "suspected terrorist".
__________________
Foxxern is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 06:58 PM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 08:27 AM
I've had some direct experience with the Patriot Act. I work for a non-profit org that gives away large sums of money to individuals in the form of grants. Since the Patriot Act was established, we continue to receive embarrassing phone calls from grantees saying 'Um...the check you sent me bounced.' Well the check didn't really bounce but banks are now refusing to honor large sum checks to individuals (we're talking artists and writers) if the check has a hand-written signature, which all of ours do. This is absurd.

The government can also go to your library and look at the books you've checked out. It can also search your home when you are not there because they can now get 'sneak and peek' search warrants without having to show one iota of proof of breaking the law.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-04-2002, 07:00 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:27 AM
Re: Re: Re: Re: What would it take......

Quote:
Originally posted by Foxxern


These two are particularly disconcerting from the Patriot Act:
  • Allowing the federal government to detain non-U.S. citizens suspected of terrorism for up to seven days without specific charges.
  • Authorization of "roving wiretaps," so that law enforcement officials can get court orders to wiretap any phone a suspected terrorist would use.

Yes, I realize that wiretaps are nothing new. I just wonder what constitutes a "suspected terrorist".
See, I do not have any objections to either of these. I am not a terrorist, therefore I do not have to worry about the wiretap. 2nd, I am a citizen, therefore, I can't be detained for 7 days without charges.

I am sure the "Shadow Government" will be able to define "suspected terrorist"......That was an attempt at humor.

__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com