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Old 04-26-2005, 08:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
If these missionaries are anything like some of the "discussions" going on here, I am not surprised that some people are still Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, pagans and whatever else.

Truly, if there was a way to put "religion" threads on ignore, I would. That would be my idea of heaven around here.

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Old 04-26-2005, 08:26 PM   #32
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Thats the biggest contention a lot of people have with Christianity. Jesus saying "No one comes to God but by me."

My problem is, I can't just go "Oh ok, since he said that I'll surrender to him." It's not an act of will. However, I think that is a widely misunderstood statement. We sinners cannot understand what he means, but I cannot accept he was making a self-centered, exclusive statement.

To my understanding, Jesus also said something like "No, I am not God." He is of the same ESSENCE as God. And we are all God's children, so I take that to mean we are all of the same essence as God.

So when he says "You cannot come to God but by me," the ME he is referring to is not our standard concept of me or I. (Do babies have the same self-concept as adults? No! So there are differences).

Rather, "Me" is not referring to a bag of skin and bones man, but rather that God essence we are all made of. If we could identify with this, we would be by Jesus. Indeed, it IS the only way to God.

Buddha said "We are all Buddha nature" You just have to realize it, via surrender. In fact, I think most religions have some component of surrender...

Like U2's song. If I ever want to live, I've got to die to myself (my Self) someday. The real question is what "me" is he referring to? What "me" do all of us refer to? Could it be that it is a flexible concept!?
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:28 PM   #33
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Very interesting post Dr. Lemonseed.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:30 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


There is. Not reading threads titled "What unites religion" or the like.
I actually had high hopes for this one, based on the title. Should have known better, huh?
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:42 PM   #35
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To condense and paraphrase:

1. Jesus was one with the All. With God. This is the "me" he refers to. And when he speaks it, he KNOWS it. It is not mere belief.

2. Sinners do not identify with the All. Thus, quite literally, the only way to God the All is by, through Jesus (who identifies with the All). He's right. Buddha is also right. We are all God-nature. Islam is right too. God is not the bag of skin and bones Jesus (which is where much confusion lies on all sides.)

Because we are sinners, we cannot reconcile our own relationship to the world with what Jesus taught. Words he used, while spoken in Truth, are confusing to people who do not live in Truth.
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Old 04-26-2005, 08:49 PM   #36
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Or like in Yahweh. "His love is like a drop in the ocean."

We are all drops, and God is the ocean. When/if we could realize we are made of the same thing as God (God's children...), the drop goes back into the ocean. No longer do we identify with a small drop, but rather we KNOW we are part of the ocean.

The scary thing about this is that it means we lose our identity as we've known it. ("Wait, I'm not a lonely drop...?!) This is why we FEAR God, and should be humble.

The trick is figuring out how to do this. I think Jesus helps a lot of people see this (especially Westerners). Sorry, I'll quit posting for now.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:16 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Lemonseed


To my understanding, Jesus also said something like "No, I am not God."
Not according to the Bible.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:19 PM   #38
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


OK, I was just curious b/c I thought in another thread you said you believe in free will.
I do, but I fail to see how being an absolutist and believing in free will are exclusive of each other.

Being an absolutist doesn't mean that I believe in pre-ordained fate. They are two different subjects altogether.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:22 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
I really hate that if you believe that there are commonalities between religions that you are a relativist.

I cannot quite explaine why it is offensive to me.

Maybe I should embrace the relativist in me and just be comfortable with it.
There are commonalities between religions, and I didn't say there weren't. In fact, Judaism is the "first half" of Christianity.

But having "commonalities" doesn't make two religions the same. Islam has Abraham, so do Judaism and Christianity. They are not the same.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:27 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


There are commonalities between religions, and I didn't say there weren't. In fact, Judaism is the "first half" of Christianity.

So let me ask you a question then, I think this fits in with the thread, do you believe Jewish people to be saved? I mean God did have a covenant with them if I remember right.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:28 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Jesus must have been a relativist......

He accepted the Jew and the Gentile.
Jesus, as we all know, was a Jew. His message was to the Jews, and under the leading of the Holy Spirit, his disciples and apostles extended that message to teh Gentiles. On a human level, when Christ walked the earth, Jesus accepted everyone, as he had love for all his fellow humans. On a spiritual level, Jesus loves everyone, and accepts into salvation anyone who places their belief in him.

Jesus wasn't a relativist in the way I am talking about relativism. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life" and "no one comes to the father but by me". Those are pretty absolute statements that leave no room for other religions to be correct. Other religions may have some truthful beliefs, but Jesus Christ said that a belief in him was necessary for eternal life. According to Jesus, he himself is the ultimate truth.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Jesus wasn't a relativist in the way I am talking about relativism. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life" and "no one comes to the father but by me".
"by me" very powerful words. Could mean by his grace, his love, and his forgiveness.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:42 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


So let me ask you a question then, I think this fits in with the thread, do you believe Jewish people to be saved? I mean God did have a covenant with them if I remember right.
Now we're really get into the meat of the whole thing; the way the Old Testament works its way into the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, the Law was the covenant. If people kept the law 100 % as prescribed by God, they would be saved. But no one can keep the law 100% so they sacrificied animals on a regular basis for what they called "atonement". But the blood of animals can't forgive sin any more than a naked mole rat can (yes, a Kim Possible reference there). The law was unable to be kept perfectly, but that's what God required.

But when Christ came, he fulfilled the law; he never sinned. He died on the cross to pay the price for our sin. When he died and was resurrected, he defeated the power of death and sin. He established a new covenant which simply was "have faith in Christ, and by his grace, you will be saved".

So, a little more about that first covenant, the law. Was it impossible to live 100% by? Yes, and Christ said that if a man has broken part of the law, he has broken the entire law. So, does the impossibility of the law mean it was a failure, a mistake? No. It was planned. As Paul tells us, the law (the first covenant) was a "school master" or "tutor" to show people their sinfulness, to convict them of it, so that when Christ came, they would realize that they can never earn their way into heaven by keeping the law or doing good works, and they would recognize their need for a savior.

I think that any Jew who puts his faith in Christ will be saved. I think that any person who lived before Christ, who had true faith in God had that faith reckoned to them as righteousness, and were accepted by God. That "faith reckoned to them as righteousness" idea is presented in Hebrews.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:45 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Now we're really get into the meat of the whole thing; the way the Old Testament works its way into the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, the Law was the covenant. If people kept the law 100 % as prescribed by God, they would be saved. But no one can keep the law 100% so they sacrificied animals on a regular basis for what they called "atonement". But the blood of animals can't forgive sin any more than a naked mole rat can (yes, a Kim Possible reference there). The law was unable to be kept perfectly, but that's what God required.

But when Christ came, he fulfilled the law; he never sinned. He died on the cross to pay the price for our sin. When he died and was resurrected, he defeated the power of death and sin. He established a new covenant which simply was "have faith in Christ, and by his grace, you will be saved".

So, a little more about that first covenant, the law. Was it impossible to live 100% by? Yes, and Christ said that if a man has broken part of the law, he has broken the entire law. So, does the impossibility of the law mean it was a failure, a mistake? No. It was planned. As Paul tells us, the law (the first covenant) was a "school master" or "tutor" to show people their sinfulness, to convict them of it, so that when Christ came, they would realize that they can never earn their way into heaven by keeping the law or doing good works, and they would recognize their need for a savior.

I think that any Jew who puts his faith in Christ will be saved. I think that any person who lived before Christ, who had true faith in God had that faith reckoned to them as righteousness, and were accepted by God. That "faith reckoned to them as righteousness" idea is presented in Hebrews.
Thanks for the honest answer.
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Old 04-26-2005, 09:47 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by Do Miss America


"by me" very powerful words. Could mean by his grace, his love, and his forgiveness.
I honestly do not mean offense to you, but I think that's reaching a little bit. He said "by me".

Even if it weren't. There are other things he said which tell us what he means by "by me", such as the verses in which he says that a belief in him is necessary.

However, you are right in saying that people will only come to the Father by Jesus' grace, love and forgiveness. If Christ didn't extend grace, love and forgiveness toward us, we wouldn't even ahve the opportunity to believe upon him.
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