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Old 09-06-2005, 07:12 AM   #46
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Headache makes a good point here. There's a lot we can do about global warming, I think, but to blame the actual hurricane on Bush or the administration is reaching.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:14 AM   #47
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I think Bush has got a giant weather machine and he uses it to divert attention from what's really going on and to gather sympathy for the US. There, I said it.
























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Old 09-06-2005, 07:15 AM   #48
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:28 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
to blame the actuall storm on bush because he didn't sign kyoto is rediculously naive and stupid.


i don't think any reasonable person believes this.

i have problems with Kyoto -- mostly because, and i say this having been in Europe at the time when it was an issue, is that it was a treaty that was designed to be politically advantageous for European politicians. it's no secret that the Greens in Europe are far more influential than they are in the US, and the treaty was designed to make the Greens happy, politically, while at the same time guaranteeing that the US would say no. so it was a net gain for European politicans -- they could say, "look, we tried, but that big nasty USA said no" when the reality was that, i believe, most European governments had no intention of even beginning to implement the standards and regulations that Kyoto would have requried.

that said, there's no question that rising ocean temperatures might not cause more hurricanes, they do make them worse. yes, global warming absolutely contribtued not to Katrina's existence but to her slower speed and power.

there's really no debate over global warming, amongst serious people. hurricanes like this are just one consequence, and we can expect to see more.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:30 AM   #50
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:30 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
and lastly, there's plenty to blame bush for in regards to the response. let's not go blaming him for things that he had nothing to do with. 'cause even if these wacky ass theories about how global warming 'cause this hurricane is true... which they're not... but let's ay for a second that they are... to blame the sitting president for an environmental problem that we've known about for decades is silly.
I agree with everything you've said when it comes to this particular hurricane, however, there's nothing wacky assed about the theory that global warming will have a substantial effect on hurrican intensity in the future. Let's hope that the positive thing coming out of this disaster is that the powers that be in the US will pull their heads out of their asses and get to work.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:59 AM   #52
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so did global warming atribute to the 50 or so hurricaines that were of a higher intensity than Katrina?

look... i'm not saying that global warming has an effect. it does. but the simple fact of the matter is that there's been dozens of hurricaines of greater strength than katrina that have struck, and we don't blame global warming for that. no one blames hurricaine andrew, a cat 5 storm with much more power than katrina, on global warming.

so while the theories are out there that global warming is 'causing this... there have been hurricaines much worse than this one in the past... there have been patterns of a few years with bad hurricaines in the past. explain all them. was that global warming, too? if so, fine... but this was long before we had problems with the o-zone layer... heck, they didn't even know what the o-zone was.

mother nature acts in mysterious ways. is there some sort of effect? sure... but there is not enough real evidence out there to prove that global warming is doing this. you can throw all the scientific data you want out on the table, linking increased temperatures and whatever else you want. and you're probably right... but... when it comes down to it, the truth is we really don't know.
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Old 09-06-2005, 07:59 AM   #53
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I'm not joking about my neighbor.......
Whatever your opinion of your neighbour, I think your comment about the hurricane was in bad taste. Just the way I see it.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:18 AM   #54
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A factor that is important is wanting proof when proof would be worldwide disaster. What we know is that pollutants are being added to the atmosphere. We may not have absolute proof but we have strong indications of potential impact. So basically we need to weigh what we can do to slow down or prevent pollution against immediate costs and also against potential longterm effects.

We do seem to currently be in a period of rapid warming. Some of that is likely natural, and some is most likely man-caused. In any case I don't think it's a great idea to continue to change the chemistry of the atmosphere when we don't know for certain how large the impacts of that pollution are.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:27 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
so did global warming atribute to the 50 or so hurricaines that were of a higher intensity than Katrina?

look... i'm not saying that global warming has an effect. it does. but the simple fact of the matter is that there's been dozens of hurricaines of greater strength than katrina that have struck, and we don't blame global warming for that. no one blames hurricaine andrew, a cat 5 storm with much more power than katrina, on global warming.

so while the theories are out there that global warming is 'causing this... there have been hurricaines much worse than this one in the past... there have been patterns of a few years with bad hurricaines in the past. explain all them. was that global warming, too? if so, fine... but this was long before we had problems with the o-zone layer... heck, they didn't even know what the o-zone was.

mother nature acts in mysterious ways. is there some sort of effect? sure... but there is not enough real evidence out there to prove that global warming is doing this. you can throw all the scientific data you want out on the table, linking increased temperatures and whatever else you want. and you're probably right... but... when it comes down to it, the truth is we really don't know.
Look it's really not that difficult. No serious scientist will ever say that one particular hurricane is solely caused by global warming. However, there is serious evidence out there suggesting that enhanced global warming might cause a rise in the intensity of hurricanes.

This does not mean every hurricane in the future can be contributed to global warming. This also doesn't mean you couldn't have had high intensity hurricanes in the past. I really can't make it anymore clear than this. I suggest you read the page I linked to if you want to know the details.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:32 AM   #56
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Originally posted by DrTeeth


Look it's really not that difficult. No serious scientist will ever say that one particular hurricane is solely caused by global warming. However, there is serious evidence out there suggesting that enhanced global warming might cause a rise in the intensity of hurricanes.

This does not mean every hurricane in the future can be contributed to global warming. This also doesn't mean you couldn't have had high intensity hurricanes in the past. I really can't make it anymore clear than this. I suggest you read the page I linked to if you want to know the details.
i've read the page... i know... but again... i'll highlight your own words to backup my point...

Quote:
Look it's really not that difficult. No serious scientist will ever say that one particular hurricane is solely caused by global warming. However, there is serious evidence out there suggesting that enhanced global warming might cause a rise in the intensity of hurricanes.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:43 AM   #57
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Something I don't understand is that reasonable people aren't asking to cripple polluting industries, just to use some of their profits for pollution control.

Or if that makes the particular industry too inefficient, allow them to purchase 'green credits' that would be invested in operations that remove pollutants from the air.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:44 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
as much as i hate bush's response to this disaster... as much as i blame him, as well as the governor of louisiana and the mayor of new orleans, the head of fema, the head of homeland security, etc. for the utter failure and lack of preparation for something that we knew was comming...

to blame the actuall storm on bush because he didn't sign kyoto is rediculously naive and stupid.

should we blame the french for the tsunami? i mean after all, they conducted nuclear testing in the area that weakened the ground in the area, perhaps leading to the slipping of the plates...


OF COURSE not... let's not be stupid. if you want to bring politics into this? fine... by all means. but anyone wanting to bring bipartisan politics into this needs to be slapped in the face with a wet noodle. it's the republicans... but the democratic governor of louisiana fucked up just as much as the federal government. it's a race thing... but the african-american mayor of new orleans fucked up just as much as the state and federal governments did. we fucked this thing up on all levels, all parties. let's not let our party affiliations 'cause us to let anyone off the hook.

and lastly, there's plenty to blame bush for in regards to the response. let's not go blaming him for things that he had nothing to do with. 'cause even if these wacky ass theories about how global warming 'cause this hurricane is true... which they're not... but let's ay for a second that they are... to blame the sitting president for an environmental problem that we've known about for decades is silly.


Hurricanes happen. Is it because of global warming, does that make them worse? I don't know. Glonal warming is an important issue, but I don't think it's the main issue here.

Global warming or not, we're still going to have hurricanes. We know they're going to happen somewhere every June - November. We need the response from the government to be better.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:51 AM   #59
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Something I don't understand is that reasonable people aren't asking to cripple polluting industries, just to use some of their profits for pollution control.
They have and have done so for decades.
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Old 09-06-2005, 08:54 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


i've read the page... i know... but again... i'll highlight your own words to backup my point...

My post was foremost directed at your comments about the existence of intense hurricanes in the past, and the point I was making is that this really isn't an issue when discussing the effects of global warming on hurricanes. It's like saying smoking doesn't encrease the chance of getting cancer because non-smokers get cancer too.

I am well aware of unknown factors in Emanuele's theory, in fact, there probably isn't one person more aware of those than Emanuele himself. But such is the nature of science. I guess the thing I dislike most about all of this is when scientific theories are dismissed because they're not 100% conclusive (yet). There is strong evidence and it would be a big mistake to just brush it aside.
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