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Old 06-13-2005, 09:16 PM   #31
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as melon pointed out, marx can be thanked for reforms made within capitalism. he and his radical band of extremists (/sarcasm) can also be thanked in large part for the development of democracy in western europe.

remaining strictly within the marxist paradigm, it is easy to see why every notable modern attempt at communist has failed. the point is that the advanced capitalist nations would fold in on themselves once their markets had been depleted. basically revolution had to begin within the industrialized nations of the world. where have we seen minority vanguard parties attempt to lead "revolutions?" russia, cuba, vietnam, north korea, etc. not exactly developed nations at the time of thier so-called revolutions. so right out of the gate a marxist would see these experiments as bound for failure...and they all failed miserably. also to marx, revolution was supposed to come from underneath, a mass movement of the workers, not the doing of vanguard parties forcing everyone to go along with them. i am rambling.

what individual rights do you think are overruled that are necessary to humanity?

voluntary communism? not for the ruling class, but for the majority - it's possible.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:17 PM   #32
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The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:17 PM   #33
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Now here is a legitimate point; western capitalism has invariably used poor nations for resources and cheap labour. Now could an ideal capitalist system ever operate where there is a balance between production and consumption so that practically every human being on the planet have a decent living standard i.e. own a house and have some disposable income, not die of preventable disease. Could this happen without a strict global government?
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:19 PM   #34
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Originally posted by Se7en
as melon pointed out, marx can be thanked for reforms made within capitalism. he and his radical band of extremists (/sarcasm) can also be thanked in large part for the development of democracy in western europe.
Wow, so now we're thanking Marx for capitalism and democracy.

If we're going down that road, perhaps we should thank Christianity for Marxism, given that his philosophy was heavily influenced by the Christian "paradigm". Also his philosophy was quite conservative, in my understanding.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:22 PM   #35
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remaining strictly within the marxist paradigm, it is easy to see why every notable modern attempt at communist has failed. the point is that the advanced capitalist nations would fold in on themselves once their markets had been depleted. basically revolution had to begin within the industrialized nations of the world. where have we seen minority vanguard parties attempt to lead "revolutions?" russia, cuba, vietnam, north korea, etc. not exactly developed nations at the time of thier so-called revolutions. so right out of the gate a marxist would see these experiments as bound for failure...and they all failed miserably. also to marx, revolution was supposed to come from underneath, a mass movement of the workers, not the doing of vanguard parties forcing everyone to go along with them. i am rambling.
No revolution along the lines you hypothesize is possible in advanced industrial societies.

If you control business and the media, you control pretty much everything.

In advanced industrial societies, revolution comes from the ruling/moneyed classes, or not at all.

This has been the case since the 1930's, if not before.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:23 PM   #36
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Yes there is actually a budding campaign to reclaim Smith for the left. ('Left' here meaning social democratic left, i.e. not communists.)
I didn't know that. I'm always ahead of my time.

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Old 06-13-2005, 09:23 PM   #37
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Now here is a legitimate point; western capitalism has invariably used poor nations for resources and cheap labour.
Theories on trade suggest that some trade is almost always better than no trade at all - both for the richer and for the less well off countries involved.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:24 PM   #38
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I'll put it this way.

If apologists for Marxism are entitled to use the "a true communist society has never been tried" argument to get communism off the hook, can advocates of capitalism use the reverse argument to explain away any perceived failings of free market capitalist societies?

Deal?
i'm not saying communism has never been tried. (see the spanish civil war and the paris commune as other examples of attempts at commism) i'm saying that they were not accurate representations of marx's paradigm, nay they were not marxist in the slightest.

also, if in your other post you are suggesting that the intellectual community has abandoned marx all together i think you are sorely mistaken. his contributions to social and economic critique havne't gone out of style quite yet.

i'm not sure how some people seem to overlook the inherent libertarian and democratic elements of marx's thought alltogether.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:24 PM   #39
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I didn't know that. I'm always ahead of my time.

Melon
The Guardian had an editorial about it some months ago.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:26 PM   #40
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Wow, so now we're thanking Marx for capitalism and democracy.


i believe we're thanking marx for his critique of capitalism, as it brought about reforms that likely saved it. and yes, marxist thought played a large role in the development of democracy across europe. see: forging democracy.

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If we're going down that road, perhaps we should thank Christianity for Marxism, given that his philosophy was heavily influenced by the Christian "paradigm". Also his philosophy was quite conservative, in my understanding.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:27 PM   #41
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also, if in your other post you are suggesting that the intellectual community has abandoned marx all together i think you are sorely mistaken. his contributions to social and economic critique havne't gone out of style quite yet.
Oh, doubtless true. They would be better off concentrating on situationism, in my view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationism
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:28 PM   #42
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You don't agree? Very well. I will post something tomorrow to back my point up.
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:29 PM   #43
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Whats the problem, selfishness and celebration of wealth can be virtues.
Selfishness and or greed are leading obstacles to charity.

"Why should my hard earned money/tax dollars go to support (Pick one: poor people, sick people, unemployed people)?"
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:29 PM   #44
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No revolution along the lines you hypothesize is possible in advanced industrial societies.

If you control business and the media, you control pretty much everything.

In advanced industrial societies, revolution comes from the ruling/moneyed classes, or not at all.

This has been the case since the 1930's, if not before.
i think you're missing the part about the possible collapse of economic society as a result of the advanced accumulation of capital into the hands of an increasingly small minority?
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Old 06-13-2005, 09:30 PM   #45
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as melon pointed out, marx can be thanked for reforms made within capitalism. he and his radical band of extremists (/sarcasm) can also be thanked in large part for the development of democracy in western europe.
I believe that the enlightenment, US constitution and the growing system of representative democracy in the early 19th Century had a lot more to do with that than Marx.

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remaining strictly within the marxist paradigm, it is easy to see why every notable modern attempt at communist has failed. the point is that the advanced capitalist nations would fold in on themselves once their markets had been depleted. basically revolution had to begin within the industrialized nations of the world. where have we seen minority vanguard parties attempt to lead "revolutions?" russia, cuba, vietnam, north korea, etc. not exactly developed nations at the time of thier so-called revolutions. so right out of the gate a marxist would see these experiments as bound for failure...and they all failed miserably. also to marx, revolution was supposed to come from underneath, a mass movement of the workers, not the doing of vanguard parties forcing everyone to go along with them. i am rambling.
But these romantic idealised workers lack the leadership; don't they invariably require the educated class to lead them? It is no coincidence that most political revolutions are lead by educated and well off political idealists.

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what individual rights do you think are overruled that are necessary to humanity?
Freedom. The control over my own life. In capitalist systems it is to a degree enabled by wealth ~ but wealth can be attained; in theory any individual could strike it rich, many will not, many will remain in a soggy middle but there is no institutionalised restrictions. In a communist society could I attain a state of freedom, could I retire and move to a sunny place or travel the world wherever I want to. See individual rights are nothing to do with humanity, they are to do with the individual. The treatment of people as a monolithic blocks with restrictions removes individual rights, "the workers" and the "bourgeois". The people who own business are portrayed as robber barons out of the 19th Century and the many small business owners are ignored. A nation of shopkeepers is what keeps the workers employed.

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voluntary communism? not for the ruling class, but for the majority - it's possible.
So it is voluntary for those that go along with it but it must be forced upon those that oppose it. Here is the fundamental problem with this system, it is opressive to those that refuse to go along with it.
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