What qualities hurt society? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-13-2005, 08:54 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 12:16 PM
To me, the main one is:

A lack of empathy for other people.
__________________

__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 06-13-2005, 08:57 PM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
marxism is a paradigm for social, political, and economic observation. you may or may not agree with its conclusions, but to say that it is something that "doesn't work" is a farce.

perhaps you were referencing totalitarian state capitalism?
Marxism may well be a "paradigm for social, political, and economic observation", but that doesn't get it off the hook.

Whenever marxism has been tried, it hasn't worked. I consider that adequate backing for stating that marxism doesn't work.

Bad ideas, bad economics, and bad philosophy cost lives.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 08:57 PM   #18
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
The joke is that the Objectivists are the most orthodox even though as a philosophy it makes a virtue out of selfishness. I certainly see where Rand is coming from with it but the absence of compromise does make it seem quite cold.

The importance of the individual citizen is the most healthy characteristic of a society, this is something that does not exist in marxist or religious systems; it is always submission of individuality to the state or God ~ it always turns out that way because the power is consolidated and the structures are inflexible.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:00 PM   #19
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Marxism may well be a "paradigm for social, political, and economic observation", but that doesn't get it off the hook.

Whenever marxism has been tried, it hasn't worked. I consider that adequate backing for stating that marxism doesn't work.

Bad ideas, bad economics, and bad philosophy cost lives.
I recomend the Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek on the nature of totalitarian states and their relationships to their economies.

There is no such thing as a laizzes-faire economy in a dictatorship because without state controls on the economy it is impossible to control the people.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:01 PM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Marxism may well be a "paradigm for social, political, and economic observation", but that doesn't get it off the hook.

Whenever marxism has been tried, it hasn't worked. I consider that adequate backing for stating that marxism doesn't work.

Bad ideas, bad economics, and bad philosophy cost lives.
"marxism" has never been tried. like i said, it is a paradigm for social, political, and economic observation. it does, however, advocate communism. no communist community, in accordance with marxist philosophy, has ever existed. come off of it. the cold war is over.

tell me, how much marx have you read?
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:03 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
no communist community, in accordance with marxist philosophy, has ever existed.
Tripe.

How much Marx have I read? Enough to find be sickened by it, I'll put it that way.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:04 PM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I recomend the Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek on the nature of totalitarian states and their relationships to their economies.
Yeah, might check it out. I read a bit of Adam Smith at college but that was quite a long time ago!
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:05 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


Tripe.

do point one out for me then.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:05 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:16 PM
If it weren't for Karl Marx, we wouldn't have the Federal Reserve.

Even if communism is a blatant failure, his philosophy made positive contributions to capitalism, even if supply-siders are more than willing to revert to the oppressive capitalism of the late 19th century.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:06 PM   #25
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
The Marxist Utopia that I hear so much about must be an impossibility; if so many have tried to attain it and yet failed so miserably and killed so many. Why is it that free men are so unwilling to surrender their possessions for the greater good that they are always forced to do it? Why are individuals rights overrulled for the sake of the revoltion? Can there be voluntary communism?

Western style capitalism with the political backbone of the liberal democratic tradition is certainly the least bad system I can think of. Pushing the extremes in either direction will inevitably do a lot more damage.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:07 PM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
do point one out for me then.
I'll put it this way.

If apologists for Marxism are entitled to use the "a true communist society has never been tried" argument to get communism off the hook, can advocates of capitalism use the reverse argument to explain away any perceived failings of free market capitalist societies?

Deal?
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:10 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Why is it that free men are so unwilling to surrender their possessions for the greater good that they are always forced to do it? Why are individuals rights overrulled for the sake of the revoltion? Can there be voluntary communism?
Could it be, perhaps, that humans value liberty and freedom? Could it be that communism does not?

Could it be (oh the heresy!) that capitalism works?

Se7en, in the 1950's your ideas were pretty popular among the intellectual classes. The world has moved on, and thank f*** for that.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:11 PM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


I'll put it this way.

If apologists for Marxism are entitled to use the "a true communist society has never been tried" argument to get communism off the hook, can advocates of capitalism use the reverse argument to explain away any perceived failings of free market capitalist societies?

Deal?
Or Nazis could as well; I mean it was an all encompassing political ideology based off the welfare state and racial pride based millitarism. It just wasn't done right the first time around. A true Nazi society would just move the undesirables to Madagascar like they wanted to originially. It worked in the 1930's so well so why don't people give it another shot. This time it could be done right.

I apologise for violating Goodwins law but the argument is circular; it doesn't refute the points. I ask explicitly what makes communism the better choice and why wasn't it done right?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:13 PM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Just to note, the philosopher behind capitalism, Adam Smith, was opposed to laissez-faire capitalism, in practice. He was bothered by the concentration of power in big business, along with the emphasis on capital at the expense of labor.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:14 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Just to note, the philosopher behind capitalism, Adam Smith, was opposed to laissez-faire capitalism, in practice. He was bothered by the concentration of power in big business, along with the emphasis on capital at the expense of labor.

Melon
Yes there is actually a budding campaign to reclaim Smith for the left. ('Left' here meaning social democratic left, i.e. not communists.)
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com