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Old 01-14-2008, 04:17 PM   #121
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2) Any mention of intangible vague platitudes like "feeling good" or "hope." I want some actual platform stances here.

One of the things I like about him is that he is not coming in with a ton of policies and saying, "THIS IS HOW IT SHALL BE." I dont' want a nitpicking dictator for 4 years. I'd like to see someone that is willing to work with other people and other people's ideas to get something done. Coming in with a strict plan that a large part of Congress will vote against just because it's not "their" plan is a waste of time.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:20 PM   #122
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deep brings up a good point about Florida, which will again be a pivotal state in the election. A predominantly older population that would most likely go for Clinton. I don't know if Obama wins there.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:31 PM   #123
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Though if McCain is the nominee, that's another older candidate the retired population could go for.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:49 PM   #124
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By "older" do you mean over 65? Over 40? Since more "older" people vote than the 18-30 age group wouldn't it mean that the majority of voters in every state are older voters?
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:06 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
Though if McCain is the nominee, that's another older candidate the retired population could go for.
Point.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:08 PM   #126
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
It is. But I won't let that stop me from being vocal about my thoughts.
Keep it up. Hold onto that excitement about the political process.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:36 PM   #127
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by deep
[B]

[[[ Obama's supporters keep ignoring his experience and seem to be going for slogans, feelings and speaking style.]]]

Go back and read my very first post. PLEASE!! This is so frustrating when people say he is all talk and no experience.
Have you been to his website? BARACKOBAMA.COM
Couple his plans and platform with the inspiring mode of delivery he has and he is a winner hands down IMO. Yes, we are so thirsty for someone that represents our country and speaks eloquently and intelligently it makes Barack feel, look and sound like God's gift to our country. Litteraly. That is why people are so hyped up about his speaking abilities and his delivery method. IT DOES MAKE us FEEL good and I don't think we should apologize for that. Getting back to the issues and his plan:

DIRECTLY from BARACKOBAMA.COM

Let's start with the economy:

Barack Obama's Plan
As president, Barack Obama will implement a 21st century economic agenda to help ensure that America can compete in a global economy, and ensure the middle class is thriving and growing. He will increase investments in infrastructure, energy independence, education, and research and development; modernize and simplify our tax code so it provides greater opportunity and relief to more Americans; and implement trade policies that benefit American workers and increase the export of American goods.

Tax Fairness for the Middle Class
Provide a “Making Work Pay” Tax Cut for America's Working Families: The American people work longer and harder than those in any other wealthy nation in the world. But their hours are getting longer and their wages aren't getting any higher. In addition they are being squeezed by rising health care, education and energy costs. Rather than relieving the burden on working families, the current administration has provided tax cut after tax cut to the wealthiest Americans and enacted tax breaks for the most well-connected corporations. Barack Obama will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they deserve. Obama will create a new “Making Work Pay” tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. This refundable income tax credit will provide direct relief to American families who face the regressive payroll tax system. It will offset the payroll tax on the first $8,100 of their earnings while still preserving the important principle of a dedicated revenue source for Social Security. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. The tax credit will also provide relief to self-employed small business owners who struggle to pay both the employee and employer portion of the payroll tax. The “Making Work Pay” tax credit offsets some of this self-employment tax as well.

Create a Universal Mortgage Credit: Owning a home is the culmination of the American dream for so many Americans. The tax code is supposed to encourage home ownership with a mortgage interest deduction, but it goes only to people who itemize their tax deductions. Like so much in our tax code, this tilts the scales toward the well-off. The current mortgage interest deduction excludes nearly two-thirds of Americans who do not itemize their taxes. Barack Obama will ensure that anyone with a mortgage, not just the well-off, can take advantage of this tax incentive for homeownership by creating a universal mortgage credit. This 10 percent credit will benefit an additional 10 million homeowners, the majority of whom earn less than $50,000 per year. Non-itemizers will be eligible for this refundable credit, which will provide the average recipient with approximately $500 per year in tax savings. This tax credit will also help homeowners deal with the uncertain state of the housing market today.
Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit: In the Illinois State Senate, Obama led the successful effort to create the $100 million Illinois Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC). As president, Obama will reward work by increasing the number of working parents eligible for EITC benefits, increasing the benefit available to parents who support their children through child support payments, increasing the benefit for families with three or more children and reducing the EITC marriage penalty which hurts low-income families. Under the Obama plan, full-time workers making minimum wage would get an EITC benefit up to $555, more than three times greater than the $175 benefit they get today. If the workers are responsibly supporting their children on child support, the Obama plan would give those workers a benefit of $1,110. The Obama plan would also increase the EITC benefit for those families that are most likely to be in poverty &endash; families with three or more children.





And it goes on and on and on.... I will spare you, because I think you get the point and don't really care what his stances or plans or experiences are. You just want to grab on to the mantra...
"he had no experience, no plan ect ect.... that's really irritating because it's not true. Good ole W had experience being a Governor before he took office with so called experience and look what that got us.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:39 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2democrat
Though if McCain is the nominee, that's another older candidate the retired population could go for.
I realize a lot of young people are identifying with Obama because of his age.


But the older Americans that tend to vote Democratic do so because they believe that party has the best solutions and programs for them.

Things like protecting social security, medicare and age discrimination, prescription drugs, etc

would give Hillary a considerable advantage over McCain

Hillary would beat McCain decisively in Florida.

Hillary is speaking more to these issues than Obama, too
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:53 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynnok
By "older" do you mean over 65? Over 40? Since more "older" people vote than the 18-30 age group wouldn't it mean that the majority of voters in every state are older voters?
Yes, but there are even more in Florida.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:54 PM   #130
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jeannieco
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


[[[ Obama's supporters keep ignoring his experience and seem to be going for slogans, feelings and speaking style.]]]

Go back and read my very first post. PLEASE!!

You may recall


I am the one that gave you a full credit for your answer.


As for his website?

I have not gone to any of the candidate’s websites.

I have quite a bit of involvement in "Marketing."
Every candidate's website can and should be designed to get people to say, "Wow, that sounds good to me!"


The good folks of Minnesota took a chance on a governor without much experience,
and it did not serve them very well.


I am someone that is very impressed with Obama. I support him being in this race.
I have high hopes for him in the future.


I just believe he is not the best candidate for 2008.


I think I want a Democratic win in Nonmember,
more than you.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:16 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeannieco


As opposed to Hillary's agenda or what we have now?

It's more than a promise of change that is for SURE.
He represents a new generation with a new way of doing business such as not bowing to special interests. Hillary's campaign is nothing but the same old thing, the establishment. Selling out to the drug companines and Rupert Murdock is NOT representing the best interest of the middle class. And to say that she is not the only one taking money is a lame argument on that one, because Barack has shown more integrity than her IMO.

Not to mention voting for the WAR before it started giving BUSH a blank check to do as he pleased. That shows POOR judgement on her part. Her explanation now is just ridiculous. She says her vote was about letting the weapons inspectors back in instead of approval for dropping bombs on innocent people. That is a load of crap. She is back tracking and making excuses.

If I knew like Barack that there were no WMD's before we went to war, why didn't she????? My brother knows a weapon inspector and told him that before the war there were no WMD's and Bush was beating the war drums without reason.

Barack gave up a lucrative law career out of school to work and to give back in the community before he even was a blip on the national political scene.
Everything Hillary says and does is politically calculated and to say that Barack has no experience is a load of garbage.
Wasn't it her husband that ran on the premise of hope and change and little experience? Don't get me wrong I voted for Clinton both times and was a fan until NAFTA and the way he sold out to the Rep. Congress, not to mention THE scandals. Bill represents a lot of baggage rather than a big asset IMO.
First off, in my case, I like Obama a lot, I think he's inspiring and I thin to follow up the Bush stain and elect a liberal black man with paternal muslim heritage and the middle name Hussein, I mean it would be poetic, wouldn't it?

Onto the point, I'm not saying he has no experience, I'm saying he has little experience and he's claiming to be an agent of change and I'm asking "change to what?" and "how does he get there?". He's no maverick from outside of the beltway, he's been a professional politician for the last ten years of his life.

The fact you couldn't answer the original quesiton without having to make a comparison to Hillary, says it all.

"A new way of doing business".... I'm sorry but that fantasy land stuff. How is he going to break the mold and change it? Specifically? You don't need to mention HIllary Clinton to try and come up with an answer.

I am willing to listen, in fact I'm still considering Obama, slightly although leaning toward Hillary pretty heavily. I just think it's empty promises. It's just rhettoric!!! That's all it is to me. I'm waiting to be told the master plan for bringing about change. To pretend Obama isn't rubbing shoulders with special interests, like everybody else in DC, is just naiive. IMO. I don't buy it for a second.

On policy, there isn't really a dimes worth of difference in their voting records or even their personal stances, this has become about who is generally liked and who is not. It's making important decisions at the most surface level. In terms of Iraq, Obama was right from the get-go, that scores him lots of points with a lot of people, including myself. He's still voting lock step with Hillary though, isn't he?? Ah, what a maverick!!!

As far as special interests, Obama had a lobbyist working as the co-chair for his NH campaign for goodness sake! His campaign basically defended themselves by saying "oh well he was only a lobbyist at the State level" HE'S STILL A FUCKING LOBBYIST FOR THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES!!!!! This is what I'm talking about the myth of Obama. Maybe Hillary is a bitch or a bore or whatever else you want to say but she's not pretending that things aren't exactly the way they are. Even John McCain understand the way things work, he's a maverick, an independent spirit and he's also not out promising to change DC in one swoop. Because he knows it can't be done.

I mean, when Ralph Nader preaches about the de-corporatization of American Govt., then my ears perk up. When it comes from Obama, I think to myself, "he's just trying to win the election". When it comes from anyone interested in retaining power, they HAVE to sell out to them just to play the game.

That's the sad thing here, it's the system that needs to be fixed and Barack Obama can't fix it by himself. Frankly, I don't think he's promising to fix it but whatever change he wants to bring, he's going to have a hard time selling compromise to the Republicans and he's going to have a hard time getting corporate lobbyists out of the Congress when he's most likely got a few in his own back pocket.
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:27 PM   #132
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http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/...e-rhetori.html

Despite Rhetoric, Obama Pushed Lobbyists' Interests

Justin Rood Reports:


Away from the bright lights and high-minded rhetoric of the campaign trail, Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., has quietly worked with corporate lobbyists to help pass breaks worth $12 million.

In his speeches, Obama has lambasted lobbyists and moneyed interests who "have turned our government into a game only they can afford to play."

"It's an entire culture in Washington -- some of it legal, some of it not," the Democratic hopeful told a New York crowd in June, rallying support for his ethics reform agenda.

But last year, at the request of a hired representative for an Australian-owned chemical corporation Nufarm, Obama introduced nine separate bills exempting the company from import fees on a range of chemical ingredients it uses in the manufacture of pesticides and herbicides. Nufarm's U.S. subsidiary is based in Illinois.

Nufarm wasn't the only beneficiary of Obama's efforts to reduce customs fees and duties. In early May of 2006, two Washington lobbyists registered to work on behalf of Astellas Pharma, a Japanese-owned drug company which also has offices in Illinois.

The lobbyists' task? "Introduce legislation to temporarily suspend customs duties for the importation of a pharmaceutical ingredient," they wrote on their lobbying forms. Less than three weeks later, the men had earned their $20,000 fee, thanks to Obama. On May 26, he introduced S. 3155, a bill specifically exempting Astellas' key ingredient from tariff payments. The bill cost the federal government more than $1 million in lost revenue, according to government estimates.

Together, Obama's obscure measures -- known as tariff suspensions -- steered more than $12 million away from federal coffers, according to government estimates.

A spokesman for the senator defended Obama's efforts on behalf of the two firms.

"Sen. Obama helped his constituents obtain foreign products necessary for their business at an affordable rate," said Ben LaBolt, noting that Obama made sure all the products "met strong environmental standards" before pushing to make it cheaper to import them.

While legal, Obama's bills on behalf of Nufarm and other companies are part of the special treatment machine Washington rolls out for special interests, say good-government watchdogs.

"If you have a company...there's a whole factory set up to help you get these suspensions," said Steve Ellis, president of the Washington, D.C.-based watchdog group Taxpayers for Common Sense. "It's a pay-to-play system you have to rev up and work." Hire the right lobbyist, pay the right fee, and you can save millions, he explained.

In Nufarm's case, Obama's staff met with a lawyer representing the company, Joel Junker, in person and on the phone several times, Junker told ABC News. Junker says he worked with Obama's staff to craft the nine bills and keep them moving forward.

"To the extent [the legislation] needs a little shepherding, you work with their staff, to be aware of the status, and work with the committee staff," he said, and spoke highly of Obama's staff. "Everything was very professional, very constituent-service oriented."

Unlike Astella's representatives, Junker did not register to lobby on behalf of Nufarm and did not disclose his fees. In an interview, Junker declined to say whether he believed his work could be considered "lobbying."

Obama's office said its staffers met once with Junker and once with the Astellas lobbyists, but it did not know how often the senator's staffers spoke with Junker or the Astellas lobbyists by phone. Astellas did not respond to a request for comment on this story. Nufarm Americas' marketing director, Tim Stoehr, confirmed his company had requested several tariff suspensions, including on products it "bought" from other Nufarm subsidiaries overseas.

A review of campaign finance records turned up no record of contributions from Nufarm to Obama. Astellas Pharma employees gave $1,100 to Obama's campaign in recent months, the documents show.

Junker defended tariff suspensions as good for American businesses. The high fees are charged to protect American manufacturers from being undercut by cheap imports, argued the former U.S. trade official. If no U.S. firm makes a particular item, the cost only hurts a company which needs to buy it overseas.

"It's nothing to be embarrassed, ashamed or suspicious of," he said.

In letters to Congress supporting Obama's measures, Junker justified the breaks for Nufarm to import a chemical known as 2,4 D and other ingredients by claiming they would "eliminate these unnecessary and avoidable...costs to [Nufarm's] consumers."

In a statement to ABC News defending the measures, Obama's spokesman echoed Junker's argument.
"Just like he fought for funding to ensure Chicago's transit system remains affordable and to invest in ethanol research, Senator Obama helped keep costs low for Illinois residents by helping them get the goods they need to do their jobs," Ben LaBolt wrote.

But the company's financial reports indicate that may not be the case. In a glowing financial report issued just two months after Obama introduced Nufarm's numerous tariff-lifting bills, Nufarm told its shareholders it was making more money than ever before in North America because it had increased its prices on its U.S. and Canadian customers, predominantly farmers.

Nufarm saw "strong revenue growth" in North America, it said in a July 31, 2006, company report. "Net profit was also up strongly," driven in part by "price rises on key products," it said. Nufarm trades on the Australian Stock Exchange.

When asked about the company's contrasting statements, Nufarm America's Stoehr told ABC News the financial report wasn't accurate.

"I don't know if I believe that," he said. "A lot of that is a little more hype." If the company had increased its prices, said Stoehr, it was only because its costs had "skyrocketed." "Our profit remained steady," said the executive.

In particular, "price rises on phenoxy herbicides," a family which includes 2,4 D, "improved the profitability of those products, despite no significant increase in sales volumes."

Economics aside, some medical researchers also harbor concerns over 2,4 D. Studies have purported to find a link between high exposure to the chemical and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, a type of cancer. Defenders of the chemical say it is safe, and note that even scientists who believe a link exists cannot explain how the chemical may cause the cancer.

With a dozen tariff suspension bills to his name, Obama stands out as the most prolific of any Democratic presidential hopeful on the topic. Sen. Hillary Clinton, N.Y., has introduced none, although she has co-sponsored 19 that were introduced by Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. Seven were to benefit the Honeywell Corporation, whose lobbyist has contributed $6,500 to Clinton since 2005. Sen. Joseph Biden, Del., has introduced none.

Only one other 2008 presidential hopeful has introduced more tariff suspension bills than Obama. Longshot GOP candidate Sen. Sam Brownback, Kan., introduced 30 such measures in the 109th Congress. Fellow dark horse candidate Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., introduced one in 2001; Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., and Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif. have introduced none.

Some say the tariff suspension process isn't how Washington should operate.

"We all saw 'Schoolhouse Rock' and learned how Washington is supposed to work," Taxpayers for Common Sense president Steve Ellis told the Blotter on ABCNews.com. "There's no 'Schoolhouse Rock' episode on tariff suspensions."

In his speeches, Sen. Obama seems to agree.

"We need a president who sees government not as a tool to enrich well-connected friends and high-priced lobbyists, but as the defender of fairness and opportunity for every American," the candidate said in his June speech. "That's the kind of president I intend to be."
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Old 01-14-2008, 07:59 PM   #133
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As far as special interests, Obama had a lobbyist working as the co-chair for his NH campaign for goodness sake! His campaign basically defended themselves by saying "oh well he was only a lobbyist at the State level" HE'S STILL A FUCKING LOBBYIST FOR THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES!!!!! This is what I'm talking about the myth of Obama. Maybe Hillary is a bitch or a bore or whatever else you want to say but she's not pretending that things aren't exactly the way they are. Even John McCain understand the way things work, he's a maverick, an independent spirit and he's also not out promising to change DC in one swoop. Because he knows it can't be done.
There is a big difference between federal and state lobbyists however, and Hillary has taken the most money from health, insurance, defense, and oil companies. Obama has more grassroots money.

Obama did say: "It's time to bring together businesses, the medical community, and members of both parties around a comprehensive solution to this crisis, and it's time to let the drug and insurance industries know that while they'll get a seat at the table, they don't get to buy every chair." So he is not naive and totally excluding business.

Also, Obama also does not have a monopoly on things like "hope" and "image". If he did, it would be Joe Biden versus Obama right now, as Biden has been a Senator since 1973.
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:03 PM   #134
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This article explains a lot of how I feel about Hillary:

http://www.slate.com/id/2182073/
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Old 01-14-2008, 08:42 PM   #135
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Originally posted by Deep:
[[[You may recall I am the one that gave you a full credit for your answer. ]]]]


You did, I'm sorry about that! Short term memory needs helps!





[[[I just believe he is not the best candidate for 2008.]]]

Sorry to hear that.


[[[I think I want a Democratic win in Nonmember,
more than you. ]]

Really? Not possible!
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