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Old 04-22-2006, 10:54 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rini


It's the logical step: if the stopping of brainwaves signifies death, then the going of brainwaves is pre-death therefore life. Only live things can suffer death.
It's a parasite just like you and I are for the first 16-22 years of our lives. Some people are emancipated earlier but it's not the norm in Western civilization. If your family or the government is paying your bills, you're a parasite. Unless you want to just call it being family. Old, helpless people need their families, too, to take care of them. If you live long, you'll get old, too. Think about it.
BTW, I'll answer your points, but what's the main thing on your mind? I don't know if it's abortion...



But it's still included. Rocks don't have brainwaves. Living humans do, and that was my point.



No where will you find a definition of life that necessitates reproduction from immature living things. There are some animals (some salamanders, for instance) who reproduce in a larval stage, but it's older larvae. That fetus has the potential of reproduction at maturity, and that's part of the definition of life. So the fetus fits inside this definition.



Now you're ducking. Our whole educational system is set up to slowly build you to expert status, if you keep at it long enough. Some people don't need expert status, but they'll learn some things that are basic to what is understood by experts. It's part of our culture to debate, and some facts are known, and some are twisted and need exposure for what they are.



People start out as one cell and grow to many cells.



Fetal humans synthesize food from the mother through the umbilical cord as the source of growth. They excrete metabolites through their blood system. They maintain homeostasis.



A fetus grows the most rapidly they ever will their entire 70-80 year life span potential.



In this case, the environment is perfectly suited for the baby's existance. They have to adapt after birth like crazy. Premature babies adapt and they're still basically so many weeks from conception.



Ever heard of a video called the "Silent Scream"? It's an ultrasound of a baby being aborted. You can see the baby pushing the abortionist's instrument away, and as part of its body is ripped off, the mouth opens and the face grimaces in what can only be an expression of severe pain.



Already checked this one off above.



Logic? Explain - what logic is that? What logic says people shouldn't live?



Technically? What are you talking about? Look up technically in your dictionary and explain what you mean.



I challenge you to quote scientifically qualified sources to support this. And define what you mean by "emotional system," preferably from your text and lecture notes.



How would you know? They can't tell you, and baby's tear ducts don't start working until after they're born.
If a fetus's feelings aren't knowingly hurt, does this mean they deserve to be cut up alive? Support this outrageous statement.



Bingo.

And ask yourself why a person can't just murder another person (take several years if you have to - this is key to civilization).



Sometimes "emotions" are really conscience.
Cutting arms and legs off a living being only bothers simple people? So sophisticated people don't mind cutting arms and legs off a child because the mother tried to kill it and wasn't sucessful? You've just insulted the humanity of nearly every person on this list.

No where else in the civilized world do we murder people because they are inconvenient.
Now let me make one point (having responded to yours): there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them, even if it doesn't hit them for 5-15 years. So why do women kill themselves or live in regret over a "just a fetus"? The numbers are statistically significant.
I had a friend who was a pro-abortion doctor (endocrinologist)whose wife was discovered mid-pregnancy to have advanced cancer. They delivered the baby at 6 months so they could start her on chemotherapy. They both died, and my friend never got over the loss. He said holding his dead six month "fetus" in his arms made him instantly pro-life.
That's not an emotional argument for simple minds - he was a doctor with 12 years of college and it changed his life when confronted with the reality.
She was human, you see, and she was his daughter.

Whether we like it or not, we are all capable of succumbing to emotional appeals rather than the central route of persuasion.
Peripheral arguments pull at our "heart's" strings, rather than beg our minds to think. Most religions teach that our conscience is mind plus heart. Science teaches us that our conscience is a part of the brain.

Say, for instance, I need to buy a car. I read Kelly's Blue Book, and I discover that Volvo's have the highest safe rating. Since I value my life, buying a Volvo sounds like a fantastic idea. However, I mention this to my friend and she freaks out. "Oh no, I once owned a Volvo and nearly died because of such and such," she emotionally tells me. Now, let's say that the Kelly Blue Book states that 99% of Volvo owners are never in an accident, or hurt in an accident. And, let's say that rating is the highest. Even though my friend's experience accounts for the 1%, and even though I know, statistically, that Volvo's are the safest, I'm still going to be more persuaded by my friend's argument.

This same principle applies to you.

You say anything that is pre-death is life. I'm now imagining my future son or daughter. Surely they are pre-death, as they have yet to be created. Are you committed to telling me that they are life?

I think not.

Let's say though that brainwaves are one component we look for when determining life. Are you suggesting that anything with brainwaves ought not to be killed? Your basic cow and chicken have brainwaves - albeit, their brains are rather small. Are you committed to the suggestion that any organism with brainwaves ought not to be killed?

Unless you are a vegetarian like the sexy Larry Mullen (go vote for him as sexiest vegetarian) or the sexy me, I doubt you have a problem killing organisms with brainwaves.

A fetus is, by scientific definition, parasitic. Children, even if they are fed and taken care of by parents, are not. Why? Children provide joy, laughter, happiness and so on and so forth. A fetus do not. Any organism that feeds off its host, without providing anything in return, is a parasite.

You point out an interesting correlation between those who have had abortions and suicide rates. There is a big difference between a correlation and causation though. Obviously, not every human who has had an abortion has committed suicide. Any keen mind though recognizes that this is an interesting correlation - and so you have done. The keen mind should, however, examine all the possible factors. Perhaps women who have abortion are also more likely to be poor and perhaps poor women are more likely to commit suicide. There is also the chance that those who have had an abortion face guilt trips by conservatives in society. Again, there are just too many unaccounted for factors.

When you say something like, "oh you hurt my feelings," surely we are not talking about physical pain. We know, that a fetus cannot have its feelings hurt. That is a huge separation between us and the fetus.

But look, why argue about this? Let's create a society in which no abortions are needed. European abortion rates are lower than in the States. Let's examine why. Abortion rates during Clinton's years were lower than they are now. Let's examine why.
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Old 04-22-2006, 11:14 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rini

That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.
I work on cancer research.

I have many cell lines that I grow in the lab.

They also have the complete set of chromosomes and grow and divide rapidly. Stem cells and other progenitor cells will even begin to differentiate into different tissues with things like the passage of time or stimulation. Human umbillical cells, which I grow, will start forming primitive vascular systems and so on.

They are not human and they are not alive.

I absolutely get an allergic reaction when things like this are posted because they are not just scientifically inaccurate, they are completely untrue and I'm tired of them being thrown out there to appeal to people's emotions when they have nothing to do with reality.

I'm a woman, I believe in every woman's right to choose. If you don't want the choice, fair enough. But as far as my body's concerned, the pro-lifers can piss off.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:08 AM   #168
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Who protects the life of the unborn child? Fair enough women arguing for their right to do whatever they want with their own bodies but doesnt the unborn baby have rights aswell?

When does a foetus become a living baby? I have no idea what the cut off time in terms of a pregnancy is before someone cannot have an abortion. However, for arguements sake, say its 18 weeks. After which, the foetus is then considered a living unborn baby? What happens on 18 weeks and one day?

By some peoples arguements, until the baby is born, even up to 8 months and 30 days, because its in their body, they can do what they want to it? An extreme arguement, but its legit based on some peoples attitudes.

I am anti abortion. To me, its wrong. Equally for abortion to be used as a get out clause for social issues/problems. Its not the solution. A child living and breathing but living in poverty is better than a baby not being given the chance to live.

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:19 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.
First of all, it isn't luck that prevents pregnancy. I would think with your superior attitude towards women and their bodies, you might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy.

Second, God help your girlfriend if your luck runs out. You'll want to own her body and compel her to have your child.

Who knows what will happen if she's raped. But you'll have made the decision for her no doubt. Just like her attacker did.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:22 AM   #170
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Here is an important question?

Is there any PRO-LIFER'S on this forum that are taking some form of contraception?
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:25 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


First of all, it isn't luck that prevents pregnancy. I would think with your superior attitude towards women and their bodies, you might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy.

Second, God help your girlfriend if your luck runs out. You'll want to own her body and compel her to have your child.

Who knows what will happen if she's raped. But you'll have made the decision for her no doubt. Just like her attacker did.
Um.. my superior attitude? Right...

Secondly, I never wrote anything about wanting to own my gf's body. Stop jumping down every f**king anti abortion arguement by saying all blokes want to own the womans body.

I might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy? I won't even comment on such a childish, ridiculous remark.

Oh btw, yeah, a gf of mine was raped 12 years ago. No, she didnt get pregnant. I guess she was lucky eh? Or maybe the rapist was quite nice and used protection.

Just editing and removing my calling you an a**hole. Apologies.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:31 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy


I am anti abortion. To me, its wrong. Equally for abortion to be used as a get out clause for social issues/problems. Its not the solution. A child living and breathing but living in poverty is better than a baby not being given the chance to live.

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.
Oh really..........so your form of contraception is what?

Abstinence
Coitus Interruptus
Condom

Or maybe your girlfriend......

Abstinence
The pill
The MORNING after-pill
IUD
Implant

'cause you know what ( besides Abstinence,condoms,and coitus Interuptus) the above are ABORTIFACIENT!!!!!!
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:36 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy


Um.. my superior attitude? Right...

Secondly, I never wrote anything about wanting to own my gf's body. Stop jumping down every f**king anti abortion arguement by saying all blokes want to own the womans body.

I might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy? I won't even comment on such a childish, ridiculous remark.

Oh btw, yeah, a gf of mine was raped 12 years ago. No, she didnt get pregnant. I guess she was lucky eh? Or maybe the rapist was quite nice and used protection.

Just editing and removing my calling you an a**hole. Apologies.

I apparently touched some nerves somewhere. Good. I want you to think about all that you say you believe in.

About not wanting to own women's bodies...How else can I explain your insistence that women who are complete strangers to you have to abide by your beliefs? How else to explain your belief in compulsory pregnancy for women? What else could it be? You folks frequently hide behind the diapers of the "unborn" yet fail to take into account the women involved.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:37 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by fly so high!


Oh really..........so your form of contraception is what?

Abstinence
Coitus Interruptus
Condom

Or maybe your girlfriend......

Abstinence
The pill
The MORNING after-pill
IUD
Implant

'cause you know what ( besides Abstinence,condoms,and coitus Interuptus) the above are ABORTIFACIENT!!!!!!
All of the above. To me, they prevent the possibility of life. Abortion is ending life that already exists.

Please tell me if you cannot see the difference and I will try to explain.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:39 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha



I apparently touched some nerves somewhere. Good. I want you to think about all that you say you believe in.

About not wanting to own women's bodies...How else can I explain your insistence that women who are complete strangers to you have to abide by your beliefs? How else to explain your belief in compulsory pregnancy for women? What else could it be? You folks frequently hide behind the diapers of the "unborn" yet fail to take into account the women involved.
I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:41 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy


I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.
And where do you think this "unborn" is?

How can your arguement have nothing to do with a woman's body?
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:43 AM   #177
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


And where do you think this "unborn" is?

How can your arguement have nothing to do with a woman's body?
Go back to my original post. Who defends the unborn childs rights? Or does the child not have any rights until its born?

By the same argument you all seem to have conveniently ignored, until the child leaves the womans body, you can do with it what you want? Even if its 8 months 30 days old?

I'd be interested in hearing your views on that.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:45 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy


Go back to my original post. Who defends the unborn childs rights? Or does the child not have any rights until its born?

By the same argument you all seem to have conveniently ignored, until the child leaves the womans body, you can do with it what you want? Even if its 8 months 30 days old?

I'd be interested in hearing your views on that.
If you go back and read this thread you'll see that this issue has been addressed a number of times.
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Old 04-23-2006, 12:47 AM   #179
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Originally posted by WildHoneyAlways


If you go back and read this thread you'll see that this issue has been addressed a number of times.
Actually, no it hasnt. Not to the point I have just asked. If it has, can you post it as i have gone back through the thread to find it and I can't.

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Old 04-23-2006, 12:48 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by Party Boy


I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.
These two statements say so much more about you than you could ever want them to.

They sum up the entire anti-choice movement in just three sentences. They should be on billboards all over the country, so people would know exactly what the hell these people are really about; how they put the "rights" of a collection of cells over living, breathing women.

Wow. Congratulations. You've let us all know how you really feel.
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