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Old 10-15-2004, 02:11 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
I'm just curious, did any Christians take the time to read the full article in the link that I posted? Did it give you a new perspective?
I thought it was drivel.
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Old 10-15-2004, 08:51 PM   #92
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Is that because you don't believe the Bible? There are many scriptures to back this up.
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:11 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
I'm just curious, did any Christians take the time to read the full article in the link that I posted? Did it give you a new perspective?
It really didn't do anything to change my mind. Sounds like it was written by a man desperate to prove one point that he already concluded before writing a single sentence.

I was brought up Catholic. This type of Christianity isn't really something I relate to, to be honest.
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:25 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
Is that because you don't believe the Bible? There are many scriptures to back this up.
One could easily turn that the other way around and say the same thing against capitol punishment.

Anyway, I'm against it.

And I think the quote from Tolkien A Wander posted is spot on. (love tolkien)
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:26 PM   #95
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I read part of it, but the article is biased and inaccurate, esp. in the end. While it is true that we can find many scriptures in favor of capital punishment - especially in the old testament - some of the following is not true (quoted from above source by BLS):

"Those who carry out the death sentence are, in reality, neutral third parties. They are merely carrying out the will of God in dispensing justice."

Not true, because they are carrying out the will of the state and the nation. They are acting in accordance with laws that have been defined by society and politicians, not by God.

"The liberal, humanistic values that have held sway in America for the last 40 years are taking their toll, and getting back to God’s view of things is the only hope if the nation is to survive."

Don´t even start to talk about God´s view of things if you only posess a version of the King James Bible. There are lots of more scriptures that are not included in that translation, and translations that differ from the abovementioned version. The term "if the nation is to survive" is clearly exaggerated. You can see where the writer is coming from.

"Even if capital punishment did not serve as a deterrent, it still would serve at least one other worthwhile purpose: the elimination from society of those elements that persist in destructive behavior."

Elimination doesn´t work like that. And you can´t clean any society up. The society bears destructive elements in itself.

BLS, please give me a better link next time.
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Old 10-16-2004, 05:07 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


In one of the other threads, someone posted regarding how the OT doesn't support murder.
How is this hypocrisy explained? I can see the religious argument for not supporting abortion, I can see the religious argument for not believing in cold blooded murder. So how about this Jury of Peers playing God? Legally killing someone? And the one thing I really do not understand, the deciding on ending another life. A life that (in religious terms) was a gift from God. You're entering God Territory by deciding you can make this decision to remove someone else's gift.

Can you explain that for me please?
No one can answer this? Hmm.
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Old 10-16-2004, 05:46 AM   #97
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I agree w BLS-
This part of the article sums it all up..

"Even if capital punishment did not serve as a deterrent, it still would serve at least one other worthwhile purpose: the elimination from society of those elements that persist in destructive behavior. The Bible teaches that some people can be hardened into a sinful, wicked condition. They have become so cold, cruel, and mean that even the threat of death does not phase them. Paul referred to those whose consciences had been “seared with a hot iron” (1 Timothy 4:2). Some people are so hardened that they are described as “past feeling” and completely given over to wickedness (Ephesians 4:19). God invoked the death penalty upon an entire generation because their wickedness was “great in the earth” and “every imagination of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

So the human heart and mind can become so alienated from right, good, and truth that a person can be unreachable, incorrigible, and irretrievable. The death penalty would spare law-abiding citizens any further perpetration of death and suffering by those who engage in such repetitive actions. How horrible and senseless it is that so many Americans have had to suffer terribly at the hands of criminals who already have been found guilty of previous crimes, but who were permitted to go free and repeat their criminal behavior!

So even if capital punishment was not a deterrent, it is still a necessary option in society. It holds in check the growth and spread of hardened criminals. A careful study is warranted of the expression “so you shall put away the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21; 1 Corinthians 5:13). "



Let it be understood there is never any joy in Capital Punisment.
And for the life of me I never have understood when ppl claim Capital Punishment is murder and kiiling an innocent baby (abortion esp late term) is not murder.

Never understood the disconnect or the most eloquent, long winded explanantions from my left minded friends and relatives.

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Old 10-16-2004, 05:54 AM   #98
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Once again, the Simpsons has an answer.

Wiggum: OK, here's how the process works. You sit on the broom and we shove you off the cliff.
Marge: What?!
Wiggum: Wait, hear me out. If you're innocent, you will fall to an honorable Christian death. If you are, however, the bride of Satan, you will surely fly your broom to safety. At that point you will report back here for torture and beheading.
Skinner: Tough, but fair.
Lisa: Stop! Doesn't the Bible say 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'?
Wiggum: The Bible says a lot of things. Shove her.
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Old 10-16-2004, 05:56 AM   #99
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angela,
you wrote-
"In one of the other threads, someone posted regarding how the OT doesn't support murder.
How is this hypocrisy explained? I can see the religious argument for not supporting abortion, I can see the religious argument for not believing in cold blooded murder. So how about this Jury of Peers playing God?"

Answer-

In the days of the Mosiac Law before Christ fulfilled that law, certain ppl or (judges of Israel) had this autority to fulfill the ends of the law in that day.

For them to execute a muderer who took innocent life, is not at all "hypocrisy"-sp

It was executing a sentence by those having the judical and religous authority of that day.
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:17 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by indigo tree


And I think the quote from Tolkien A Wander posted is spot on. (love tolkien)
Gandalf also had mercy upon Saruman. Look what happened to the Shire.

(just playing devil's advocate here)
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:42 AM   #101
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diamond, thank you, but it still doesn't give me much of an answer. we dont live in mosiac (sp?) law days anymore.

in terms of right now, in terms of religion shaping the views of many intelligent and educated people, how does a blatant breach of a commandment sit so easily? in christianity, isn't life a gift? how do we have the right to remove it? speaking only from this side of the argument? i know the eye for an eye answer. but we are not debating here how wrong it is for anyone to kill someone and become a criminal. we know this is wrong. what i want to know is HOW in terms of religion, another killing is justified.
thou shalt not kill.

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Old 10-16-2004, 07:53 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
diamond, thank you, but it still doesn't give me much of an answer. we dont live in mosiac (sp?) law days anymore.

in terms of right now, in terms of religion shaping the views of many intelligent and educated people, how does a blatant breach of a commandment sit so easily? in christianity, isn't life a gift? how do we have the right to remove it? speaking only from this side of the argument? i know the eye for an eye answer. but we are not debating here how wrong it is for anyone to kill someone and become a criminal. we know this is wrong. what i want to know is HOW in terms of religion, another killing is justified.
thou shalt not kill.

We still live in a partail Mosaic Law. Christ fulfilled and supplemented that law. In other words no more death penality for day dreaming about your nieghbor's ass, or your neighbor's wife's ass

In the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" it really means and can actually be translated from the original text as: "Thou Shall Not Murder"

It doesn't say "Thou Shall Not Commit Capital Punishment"

Futhurmore if you took the oft repeated phrase of.."Thou Shall Not Judge" and spun it to your own interpretation..think of what a chacotic mess the world would really be in, even worse than it is now.
We have a right to judge, a long as we are not hypocrites is what Jesus taught.

hope this makes sense and welcome back.

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Old 10-16-2004, 08:13 AM   #103
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ahh, the lovely handy grey of death murder, manslaughter, capital punishment...dontcha love it? breaking into your neighbour's house and shooting him point blank because he coveted your wife's ass is bad. we call that murder. having your neighbour break into your house because you coveted his wife's ass, and then threatening you so you end up shooting HIM point blank to protect yourself is manslaughter. or accidentally running him over as you back your car out of your driveway as he is sneaking up to do more coveting of ass is also manslaughter. it's still also really bad. sure, that is an accident so it slightly differs. it wasnt intentional.

capital punishment is fully intentional. it's the most careful and premeditated murder there is. its legal murder. it surely was something jesus never taught. i see hypocrisy.

as for not judging, do you think the commandment means legal judgement or moral judgement?

nice to see you back too db69
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Old 10-16-2004, 10:01 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
ahh, the lovely handy grey of death murder, manslaughter, capital punishment...dontcha love it? breaking into your neighbour's house and shooting him point blank because he coveted your wife's ass is bad. we call that murder. having your neighbour break into your house because you coveted his wife's ass, and then threatening you so you end up shooting HIM point blank to protect yourself is manslaughter. or accidentally running him over as you back your car out of your driveway as he is sneaking up to do more coveting of ass is also manslaughter. it's still also really bad. sure, that is an accident so it slightly differs. it wasnt intentional.

capital punishment is fully intentional. it's the most careful and premeditated murder there is. its legal murder. it surely was something jesus never taught. i see hypocrisy.

as for not judging, do you think the commandment means legal judgement or moral judgement?

nice to see you back too db69
[QUOTE]
Angela wrote-

"capital punishment is fully intentional".

correct- it is punishment not murder.

Angela asked about "judging and judgement".

judging means to judge both morally and legally, mostly moral as Christ fulfilled letter of the law(legal). Don't judge immorally. If you are a amoral person, an immoral person or a hypocrite you are ineligible to judge, according to Christ's teachings

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Old 10-16-2004, 10:03 AM   #105
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So it is a belief that Jesus and God support this. They're all for capital punishment.

Anyone else agree with that?
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