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Old 10-15-2004, 10:19 AM   #76
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


The entire criminal system dealing with the killing of another is based on motivation!
no. the method in which prosecuters determine whether someone is guilty/innocent is based on motivations. if someone can establish motives for a crime, then it is easier to prosecute. once the judgment has been made, the punishment follows laws that are based upon the actual severity of the crime (except in the case of mental illness/insanity).
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:22 AM   #77
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
There are a lot of people who are pretty strong on the principle of saying "100% against" and that there are no exceptions. I wonder how strong those principles would stand if one of your loved ones was brutally murdered/tortured...ect. I also ask these people if they've ever experienced anything like that.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Retribution just doesn't bring closure.

And no, no one I knew personally was ever murdered (although my mom's closest co-worker's stepson was one of Dahmer's victims )
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:26 AM   #78
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Originally posted by Anirban


making laws on the motivations of actions gets us nowhere.
Ditto nbcrusader's point.


Quote:

who is to discriminate between someone going out and killing innocent strangers and someone who hunts down abusive fathers and kills them?
Nobody is trying to draw a distinction between a plain old murder and a vigilante murderer, while your implied equivalence between a vigilante murderer and capital punishment is spurious.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:28 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban


no. the method in which prosecuters determine whether someone is guilty/innocent is based on motivations.
More accurately -- depending on motivations, some forms of killing are crimes (murder) and some others aren't (self-defense, war). Seems like the point that nbcrusader was trying to make.

Capital punishment is the act of the state killing someone with a certain set of motivations.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:34 AM   #80
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Originally posted by speedracer


Nobody's arguing that killing a murderer will bring the victim back, and (at least checking back for the last couple pages or so) nobody is arguing that we need to kill murderers to provide a catharsis for the relatives of the victims. Underlying ImOuttaControl's post is the objective assertion that people who commit certain crimes forfeit their right to live.
I know no one is arguing that, but ImOuttaControl's post was based on and pleaing to someone's emotions. I was giving my response from that point of view.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:37 AM   #81
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you guys are forgetting that the motivations for a murder are only used during prosecution...to find out whether the person is guilty/innocent. the actual degree of severity of the crime (manslaughter, 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree) is how punishments are made (i believe there may be degrees of manslaughter as well). that said, in the eyes of the law, a haneous crime committed out of boredom or out of an eleaborate/premeditated plot are punished equally if the actual crime is of the same nature. it logically follows that once these distinctions are made, there are 4 (roughly) different possible punishments for the crime of murder. now that we have that cleared up (sorry it got side tracked with definitions of the words i used) ... the argument should concentrate on the nature of the 4 possible punishments (again, manslaughter, 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and 3rd degree murder). is capital punishment an appropriate punishment for any of these crimes? i don't think so...since motivations are removed when punishing a criminal, it comes down to whether killing somone is a moral/ethical punishment.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:37 AM   #82
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I know no one is arguing that, but ImOuttaControl's post was based on and pleaing to someone's emotions. I was giving my response from that point of view.
Fair enough.

I don't like these sort of emotional arguments for precisely this reason. To borrow a quote from Kent Brockman, "they tug at the heart and cloud the mind."
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:41 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban
you guys are forgetting that the motivations for a murder are only used during prosecution...to find out whether the person is guilty/innocent. the actual degree of severity of the crime (manslaughter, 1st, 2nd, 3rd degree) is how punishments are made (i believe there may be degrees of manslaughter as well). that said, in the eyes of the law, a haneous crime committed out of boredom or out of an eleaborate/premeditated plot are punished equally if the actual crime is of the same nature. it logically follows that once these distinctions are made, there are 4 (roughly) different possible punishments for the crime of murder. now that we have that cleared up (sorry it got side tracked with definitions of the words i used) ... the argument should concentrate on the nature of the 4 possible punishments (again, manslaughter, 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, and 3rd degree murder). is capital punishment an appropriate punishment for any of these crimes? i don't think so...since motivations are removed when punishing a criminal, it comes down to whether killing somone is a moral/ethical punishment.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

The whole point that nbcrusader and I have argued is that there isn't necessarily anything "unethical" or "immoral" about capital punishment. As for whether it's "appropriate", well, that's another argument.

As I stated about 273 pages ago, I don't much care whether we execute first-degree murderers or lock them away for life. I've just been taking the side of capital punishment because it seems like that's where I could make the most effective arguments in this thread.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:43 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


More accurately -- depending on motivations, some forms of killing are crimes (murder) and some others aren't (self-defense, war). Seems like the point that nbcrusader was trying to make.

Capital punishment is the act of the state killing someone with a certain set of motivations.
using your logic, someone who goes out and kills 10 people out of boredom would be punished less serverly than someone who goes out and hunts 10 abortion doctors after a carefully thought out plan. motivations ease prosecution...but are secondary to the actual nature of the crime when punishing a criminal. and since motivations are the variable here, and the crime of murdering a human is constant in every case (since every human life is seen equal to every other human life in the eyes of the law) then it follows that punishments should be designed around the constants. (because the variables are too numerous)
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:46 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban


using your logic, someone who goes out and kills 10 people out of boredom would be punished less serverly than someone who goes out and hunts 10 abortion doctors after a carefully thought out plan. motivations ease prosecution...but are secondary to the actual nature of the crime when punishing a criminal. and since motivations are the variable here, and the crime of murdering a human is constant in every case (since every human life is seen equal to every other human life in the eyes of the law) then it follows that punishments should be designed around the constants. (because the variables are too numerous)
I think you're conflating two arguments here.

The first is about how to punish criminals. I don't much care about this side.

The second is about whether capital punishment is equivalent to a crime. I argue that since the motivation in this case is to protect the people/deter future criminals/whatever, and that since it's done by the state by due process of law, capital punishment is not a crime (morally and legally speaking). Just as killing in wartime according to certain conventions is not a crime.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:47 AM   #86
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Originally posted by speedracer


Ok, now we're getting somewhere.

The whole point that nbcrusader and I have argued is that there isn't necessarily anything "unethical" or "immoral" about capital punishment. As for whether it's "appropriate", well, that's another argument.

As I stated about 273 pages ago, I don't much care whether we execute first-degree murderers or lock them away for life. I've just been taking the side of capital punishment because it seems like that's where I could make the most effective arguments in this thread.
yes...i agree with you that the debate is over the ethics of capital punishment. clearly both of us have valid points on the actual judicial process since some states have capital punishment and some have stopped them.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:50 AM   #87
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ok...so forgetting the side of how to punish criminals... capital punishments and ethics: if the goal of punishing a murderer is to make sure that he/she never murders another individual, then we must brainstorm all the different ways to accomplish this. the two most popular methods (i think you will agree) are capital punishment and life-imprisonment. talking about economics doesn't fit here because it has been seen that both cost the state a lot of money. ethically, i just can't see how ending another human life is better than being removed from the society in which the crime was committed.
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:56 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban
ok...so forgetting the side of how to punish criminals... capital punishments and ethics: if the goal of punishing a murderer is to make sure that he/she never murders another individual, then we must brainstorm all the different ways to accomplish this. the two most popular methods (i think you will agree) are capital punishment and life-imprisonment. talking about economics doesn't fit here because it has been seen that both cost the state a lot of money. ethically, i just can't see how ending another human life is better than being removed from the society in which the crime was committed.
Well, here are some arguments which I don't entirely agree with.

1. Deterrence. Perhaps facing execution instead of life-imprisonment will deter would-be criminals. I'm skeptical of this argument, because I don't think murderers think about this sort of thing when they murder, but who knows? I could be wrong. It'd take some serious analysis to figure this out.

2. Negotiating with terrorists. If we execute Ramzi Yousef, the argument goes, terrorists won't take hostages and offer them in exchange for his release.

Of course, I would think that if we killed Ramzi Yousef, then the terrorists would just go about their business and kill the hostages instead of offering in exchange.
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Old 10-15-2004, 11:13 AM   #89
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i do not feel deterrence works in the case of capital punishment because countries who have banned the practice also have less crime (this is also the result of many other judicial differences with america). as for terrorists, if you are specifcally talking about fundamentalists/extremists, their value for all life is very low (including their own!). capital punishment could even be seen as a reward...a crowning of martyrdom if you will. moreover, i'm not really sure how international law plays a factor in these situations....since in most cases the crimes are comitted in other countries.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:19 PM   #90
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I'm just curious, did any Christians take the time to read the full article in the link that I posted? Did it give you a new perspective?
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