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Old 10-14-2004, 10:33 PM   #61
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There are a lot of people who are pretty strong on the principle of saying "100% against" and that there are no exceptions. I wonder how strong those principles would stand if one of your loved ones was brutally murdered/tortured...ect. I also ask these people if they've ever experienced anything like that.

I have 2 personal stories that are good examples of why some people don't deserve to live.

A girl(Katie Poirier) I went to high school with here in Minnesota was working at a gas station when, in the middle of the night, she was kidnapped by a man named Donald Blom. He raped her, then put her body through a wood-chipper and burnt the remains. How more f*cking brutal can you get!! Does this murderer deserve to live? HELL NO! He deserves to die and rot in hell. She didn't deserve to be murdered at age 19.

Another story is of Paul Antonich. I didn't know him, but I became good friends with his sister in college. He was in a minor traffic accident with a group of native americans. In broad daylight, and in front of traffic, they beat him and threw him into the trunk of the car. They brought him to the reservation where they tortured him by shooting him in non vital areas of his body (legs, arms, feet..ect) with a .22 caliber firearm; ultimately killing him. The tramua that this family has faced, even after 7 years or so, is immense. They are forever scarred, and 17 year old Paul lost his life. Do these murderers deserve to live? NO!

If someone can give me a good reason on why people who committ such heinous crimes should live, I'll listen. "2 wrongs don't make a right" doesn't count, because in my mind how could it be wrong to execute someone who tortured/stole someone else's life? Both these cases had overwhelming DNA evidence, which is good enough for me.

Unfortunately the victims are the people who are almost always forgotten. Remember that criminals who are executed aren't victims--the people who had to be burried before their time are the true victims.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:51 PM   #62
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there are many logical paths to reach the conclusion that capital punishment is wrong. an easy one that comes to mind is that it is generally accepted that morality/ethics has a universal component. if everyone was allowed to behave in their own way...making up their own code of ethics...the world would be in chaos. that said, laws and customs stem from general agreement on universal moral principles. through societal evolution, laws are perfected and adjusted to portray intellectual advancements on the discovery of universal moral law. however, murder/killing is definitely a crime that is universally accepted in modern times as wrong. therefore, to punish a muderer by killing him/her goes against the moral/ethical law the criminal broke to begin with. it is our responisbility as human beings to find ways to punish those who break the moral code of humanity in a manner that does not compromise that same code. if logic is seen as the "mathematics" of reason...then capital punishment would definitly contradict the very principle that makes the crime of murder wrong.
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Old 10-14-2004, 10:53 PM   #63
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The first case shows evil, and no ammount of love can ever remedy that. Death is the lesser punishment; they never have to pay for what they have done. Just have a white room, leave them in it for the rest of their lives with no human contact, total isolation now that would be punishment.

The second case would never ever see the death penalty because the PC police would twist it around entirely and show that they were driven to it by racism in the community and transform the event to make the murderers the victim. The death penalty is too weak a punishment and its benefits are questionable.

A timely quote;
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
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Old 10-15-2004, 12:28 AM   #64
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I am sorry, but even if someone killed my mother (who is my best friend) I couldn't wish death on them...I just couldn't. It wouldn't bring my mother back, and it wouldn't make me feel any better...I didn't create life and I can't destroy either...
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:25 AM   #65
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nbcrusader;

In a nutshell, no - Capital Punishment does not go far enough. It truly is the easy way out for them. I do not believe, even for a second, that ending the life of someone is adequate punishment. Not when such a person has put through his or her victims through such torment and suffering. There are worse things than Death, and that is living through the consequences of your actions. In a word; pain.

What I would propose, in my ideal world, is to have them serve a life sentence. But not in a wonderful prison as we see in many cases here in Britain, but in a 'real' dungeon.

Ant.
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:20 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Presumptions are dangerous. Ok first of all has murder declined?
That's why I try to make explicit all assumptions in any argument I make.

As for whether capital punishment is an effective deterrent, I have no idea. You'd have to dig up a lot of data, control a bunch of different variables, etc.

Quote:

But even if it has, my belief against capital punishment has nothing to do with future crime. You can't deter evil with punishment only with love.
If you believe that deterrence doesn't justify the taking of life, fine. Just don't confuse an empirical point with a philosophical point.
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban
there are many logical paths to reach the conclusion that capital punishment is wrong. an easy one that comes to mind is that it is generally accepted that morality/ethics has a universal component. if everyone was allowed to behave in their own way...making up their own code of ethics...the world would be in chaos. that said, laws and customs stem from general agreement on universal moral principles. through societal evolution, laws are perfected and adjusted to portray intellectual advancements on the discovery of universal moral law. however, murder/killing is definitely a crime that is universally accepted in modern times as wrong. therefore, to punish a muderer by killing him/her goes against the moral/ethical law the criminal broke to begin with. it is our responisbility as human beings to find ways to punish those who break the moral code of humanity in a manner that does not compromise that same code. if logic is seen as the "mathematics" of reason...then capital punishment would definitly contradict the very principle that makes the crime of murder wrong.
Murder != capital punishment.

Murder is the malicious, premeditated killing of an innocent person.

Capital punishment is the dispassionate killing of a person who has been found guilty of some severe crime by the criminal justice system.
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:25 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer

A timely quote;
"Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."
-- J.R.R. Tolkien
I was wondering why it was taking so long for someone to pull out this quote.

I was a little bit disappointed that the movie pulled out this quote in the Mines of Moria when the book had Gandalf saying it to Frodo in the Shire, though.
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:34 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
nbcrusader;

In a nutshell, no - Capital Punishment does not go far enough. It truly is the easy way out for them. I do not believe, even for a second, that ending the life of someone is adequate punishment. Not when such a person has put through his or her victims through such torment and suffering. There are worse things than Death, and that is living through the consequences of your actions. In a word; pain.

What I would propose, in my ideal world, is to have them serve a life sentence. But not in a wonderful prison as we see in many cases here in Britain, but in a 'real' dungeon.

Ant.
Look down, look down
Don't look 'em in the eye
Look down, look down
You're here until you die

The sun is strong
It's hot as hell below


Look down, look down
There's twenty years to go

I've done no wrong
Sweet Jesus, hear my prayer


Look down, look down
Sweet Jesus doesn't care

I know she'll wait
I know that she'll be true


Look down, look down
They've all forgotten you

When I get free
You won't see me
Here for dust


Look down, look down
Don't look 'em in the eye

How long, O Lord,
Before you let me die?


Look down, look down
You'll always be a slave
Look down, look down
You're standing in your grave
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:04 AM   #70
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I am undecided. While I believe you have to suffer the consequences of your actions, reap what you sew, etc. when I hear that someone has been executed by the state it leaves me with a sinking feeling. Even when Timothy McVeigh was executed I just felt saddened! Someone that did such a horrible thing deserved what he got - but I can't explain it, I don't know why. It just makes me near ill when I hear about it happening.

Carrie
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:54 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
There are a lot of people who are pretty strong on the principle of saying "100% against" and that there are no exceptions. I wonder how strong those principles would stand if one of your loved ones was brutally murdered/tortured...ect. I also ask these people if they've ever experienced anything like that.

I have 2 personal stories that are good examples of why some people don't deserve to live.

A girl(Katie Poirier) I went to high school with here in Minnesota was working at a gas station when, in the middle of the night, she was kidnapped by a man named Donald Blom. He raped her, then put her body through a wood-chipper and burnt the remains. How more f*cking brutal can you get!! Does this murderer deserve to live? HELL NO! He deserves to die and rot in hell. She didn't deserve to be murdered at age 19.

Another story is of Paul Antonich. I didn't know him, but I became good friends with his sister in college. He was in a minor traffic accident with a group of native americans. In broad daylight, and in front of traffic, they beat him and threw him into the trunk of the car. They brought him to the reservation where they tortured him by shooting him in non vital areas of his body (legs, arms, feet..ect) with a .22 caliber firearm; ultimately killing him. The tramua that this family has faced, even after 7 years or so, is immense. They are forever scarred, and 17 year old Paul lost his life. Do these murderers deserve to live? NO!

If someone can give me a good reason on why people who committ such heinous crimes should live, I'll listen. "2 wrongs don't make a right" doesn't count, because in my mind how could it be wrong to execute someone who tortured/stole someone else's life? Both these cases had overwhelming DNA evidence, which is good enough for me.

Unfortunately the victims are the people who are almost always forgotten. Remember that criminals who are executed aren't victims--the people who had to be burried before their time are the true victims.
No, I disagree. Look, both of those stories are truly awful, I can't imagine what either family had to/is still going through. But that isn't a reason for capital punishment. Life in prison no questions asked would have been the proper punishment. In these cases, the most important thing is NOT soothing the blazing hate that families will naturally feel for the criminal That may be cold and that be insensitive, and I'm not saying the families shouldn't be hurting, but it's the most important thing is keeping the criminal out of society. And prison for life accomplishes that. No need to go any further. Also, I honestly think that living in a small confined place eating stale food and having near no recreational activities is a more just punishment because it lasts for a long time. If you are executed, it lasts for ten minutes, then you're gone. You're not being punished anymore once you're dead. If these families truely wanted these criminals to suffer, they would push for life in prison no questions asked. Why do you think so many guilty criminals would rather die? Because it's shorter than prison. Finally, mistakes can be made. Not saying they were in the cases you've spoken of, but mistakes can be made with capital punishment. If a wrongly convicted person is in prison, you can release him. If a wrongly convicted person is executed, you can't bring him back.

To answer your question, even if my whole family was killed by someone, I wouldn't ask for death. You can bet I'd fight with every bone and muscle in my body to make sure the sick bastard rots in prison for the rest of his/her life. But no capital punishment. Because ultimately when families push for capital punishment, it is an attempt to ease the pain they are feeling. Well guess what? They can watch the criminal be tortured and beaten and murdered even more barbarically than their loved one was, but it's not going to bring their child/sister/brother/spouse/friend back. And the pain will still be there. You can't just make it go away injecting chemicals into the person. If that were to happen to me, I would still feel the pain, and it would never fully go away. Capital punishment wouldn't change that.

Capital punishment is unneccessary and it is wrong.
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Old 10-15-2004, 08:14 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer


Murder != capital punishment.

Murder is the malicious, premeditated killing of an innocent person.

Capital punishment is the dispassionate killing of a person who has been found guilty of some severe crime by the criminal justice system.
making laws on the motivations of actions gets us nowhere. who is to discriminate between someone going out and killing innocent strangers and someone who hunts down abusive fathers and kills them? you cannot provide a definition (and use words like malicious and premeditated) when that is not always the case (murder during a burglary sometimes is not premeditated). That said, both muder and capital punishment is the taking of a human life by a human. No matter what extra words you tack onto the definitions of murder/capital punishment, that statement will ALWAYS be true.
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Old 10-15-2004, 08:19 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anirban
making laws on the motivations of actions gets us nowhere. .
The entire criminal system dealing with the killing of another is based on motivation!
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl
There are a lot of people who are pretty strong on the principle of saying "100% against" and that there are no exceptions. I wonder how strong those principles would stand if one of your loved ones was brutally murdered/tortured...ect. I also ask these people if they've ever experienced anything like that.

I have 2 personal stories that are good examples of why some people don't deserve to live.

A girl(Katie Poirier) I went to high school with here in Minnesota was working at a gas station when, in the middle of the night, she was kidnapped by a man named Donald Blom. He raped her, then put her body through a wood-chipper and burnt the remains. How more f*cking brutal can you get!! Does this murderer deserve to live? HELL NO! He deserves to die and rot in hell. She didn't deserve to be murdered at age 19.

Another story is of Paul Antonich. I didn't know him, but I became good friends with his sister in college. He was in a minor traffic accident with a group of native americans. In broad daylight, and in front of traffic, they beat him and threw him into the trunk of the car. They brought him to the reservation where they tortured him by shooting him in non vital areas of his body (legs, arms, feet..ect) with a .22 caliber firearm; ultimately killing him. The tramua that this family has faced, even after 7 years or so, is immense. They are forever scarred, and 17 year old Paul lost his life. Do these murderers deserve to live? NO!

If someone can give me a good reason on why people who committ such heinous crimes should live, I'll listen. "2 wrongs don't make a right" doesn't count, because in my mind how could it be wrong to execute someone who tortured/stole someone else's life? Both these cases had overwhelming DNA evidence, which is good enough for me.

Unfortunately the victims are the people who are almost always forgotten. Remember that criminals who are executed aren't victims--the people who had to be burried before their time are the true victims.
I had someone very close to me who was murdered she wasn't even 19 yet. The man confessed to his crime. How will taking his life bring back hers?
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Old 10-15-2004, 10:12 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I had someone very close to me who was murdered she wasn't even 19 yet. The man confessed to his crime. How will taking his life bring back hers?
Nobody's arguing that killing a murderer will bring the victim back, and (at least checking back for the last couple pages or so) nobody is arguing that we need to kill murderers to provide a catharsis for the relatives of the victims. Underlying ImOuttaControl's post is the objective assertion that people who commit certain crimes forfeit their right to live.
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