What is your opinion on capital punishment?

[BVS]

I'm just curious, did any Christians take the time to read the full article in the link that I posted? Did it give you a new perspective?

I thought it was drivel.

 

[bonosloveslave]

Is that because you don't believe the Bible? There are many scriptures to back this up.

 

[anitram]

I'm just curious, did any Christians take the time to read the full article in the link that I posted? Did it give you a new perspective?

It really didn't do anything to change my mind. Sounds like it was written by a man desperate to prove one point that he already concluded before writing a single sentence.

I was brought up Catholic. This type of Christianity isn't really something I relate to, to be honest.

 

[indigo tree]

Is that because you don't believe the Bible? There are many scriptures to back this up.

One could easily turn that the other way around and say the same thing against capitol punishment.

Anyway, I'm against it.

And I think the quote from Tolkien A Wander posted is spot on. (love tolkien)

 

[hiphop]

I read part of it, but the article is biased and inaccurate, esp. in the end. While it is true that we can find many scriptures in favor of capital punishment - especially in the old testament - some of the following is not true (quoted from above source by BLS):

"Those who carry out the death sentence are, in reality, neutral third parties. They are merely carrying out the will of God in dispensing justice."

Not true, because they are carrying out the will of the state and the nation. They are acting in accordance with laws that have been defined by society and politicians, not by God.

"The liberal, humanistic values that have held sway in America for the last 40 years are taking their toll, and getting back to God’s view of things is the only hope if the nation is to survive."

Don´t even start to talk about God´s view of things if you only posess a version of the King James Bible. There are lots of more scriptures that are not included in that translation, and translations that differ from the abovementioned version. The term "if the nation is to survive" is clearly exaggerated. You can see where the writer is coming from.

"Even if capital punishment did not serve as a deterrent, it still would serve at least one other worthwhile purpose: the elimination from society of those elements that persist in destructive behavior."

Elimination doesn´t work like that. And you can´t clean any society up. The society bears destructive elements in itself.

BLS, please give me a better link next time.

 

[Angela Harlem]

In one of the other threads, someone posted regarding how the OT doesn't support murder.
How is this hypocrisy explained? I can see the religious argument for not supporting abortion, I can see the religious argument for not believing in cold blooded murder. So how about this Jury of Peers playing God? Legally killing someone? And the one thing I really do not understand, the deciding on ending another life. A life that (in religious terms) was a gift from God. You're entering God Territory by deciding you can make this decision to remove someone else's gift.

Can you explain that for me please?

No one can answer this? Hmm.

 

[diamond]

I agree w BLS-
This part of the article sums it all up..

"Even if capital punishment did not serve as a deterrent, it still would serve at least one other worthwhile purpose: the elimination from society of those elements that persist in destructive behavior. The Bible teaches that some people can be hardened into a sinful, wicked condition. They have become so cold, cruel, and mean that even the threat of death does not phase them. Paul referred to those whose consciences had been “seared with a hot iron” (1 Timothy 4:2). Some people are so hardened that they are described as “past feeling” and completely given over to wickedness (Ephesians 4:19). God invoked the death penalty upon an entire generation because their wickedness was “great in the earth” and “every imagination of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually” (Genesis 6:5).

So the human heart and mind can become so alienated from right, good, and truth that a person can be unreachable, incorrigible, and irretrievable. The death penalty would spare law-abiding citizens any further perpetration of death and suffering by those who engage in such repetitive actions. How horrible and senseless it is that so many Americans have had to suffer terribly at the hands of criminals who already have been found guilty of previous crimes, but who were permitted to go free and repeat their criminal behavior!

So even if capital punishment was not a deterrent, it is still a necessary option in society. It holds in check the growth and spread of hardened criminals. A careful study is warranted of the expression “so you shall put away the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21; 1 Corinthians 5:13). "



Let it be understood there is never any joy in Capital Punisment.
And for the life of me I never have understood when ppl claim Capital Punishment is murder and kiiling an innocent baby (abortion esp late term) is not murder.

Never understood the disconnect or the most eloquent, long winded explanantions from my left minded friends and relatives.

db9

 

[speedracer]

Once again, the Simpsons has an answer.

Wiggum: OK, here's how the process works. You sit on the broom and we shove you off the cliff.
Marge: What?!
Wiggum: Wait, hear me out. If you're innocent, you will fall to an honorable Christian death. If you are, however, the bride of Satan, you will surely fly your broom to safety. At that point you will report back here for torture and beheading.
Skinner: Tough, but fair.
Lisa: Stop! Doesn't the Bible say 'Judge not, lest ye be judged'?
Wiggum: The Bible says a lot of things. Shove her.

 

[diamond]

angela,
you wrote-
"In one of the other threads, someone posted regarding how the OT doesn't support murder.
How is this hypocrisy explained? I can see the religious argument for not supporting abortion, I can see the religious argument for not believing in cold blooded murder. So how about this Jury of Peers playing God?"

Answer-

In the days of the Mosiac Law before Christ fulfilled that law, certain ppl or (judges of Israel) had this autority to fulfill the ends of the law in that day.

For them to execute a muderer who took innocent life, is not at all "hypocrisy"-sp

It was executing a sentence by those having the judical and religous authority of that day.
db9

 

[speedracer]

And I think the quote from Tolkien A Wander posted is spot on. (love tolkien)

Gandalf also had mercy upon Saruman. Look what happened to the Shire.

(just playing devil's advocate here)

 

[Angela Harlem]

diamond, thank you, but it still doesn't give me much of an answer. we dont live in mosiac (sp?) law days anymore.

in terms of right now, in terms of religion shaping the views of many intelligent and educated people, how does a blatant breach of a commandment sit so easily? in christianity, isn't life a gift? how do we have the right to remove it? speaking only from this side of the argument? i know the eye for an eye answer. but we are not debating here how wrong it is for anyone to kill someone and become a criminal. we know this is wrong. what i want to know is HOW in terms of religion, another killing is justified.
thou shalt not kill.

 

[diamond]

diamond, thank you, but it still doesn't give me much of an answer. we dont live in mosiac (sp?) law days anymore.

in terms of right now, in terms of religion shaping the views of many intelligent and educated people, how does a blatant breach of a commandment sit so easily? in christianity, isn't life a gift? how do we have the right to remove it? speaking only from this side of the argument? i know the eye for an eye answer. but we are not debating here how wrong it is for anyone to kill someone and become a criminal. we know this is wrong. what i want to know is HOW in terms of religion, another killing is justified.
thou shalt not kill.

We still live in a partail Mosaic Law. Christ fulfilled and supplemented that law. In other words no more death penality for day dreaming about your nieghbor's ass, or your neighbor's wife's ass

In the Commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill" it really means and can actually be translated from the original text as: "Thou Shall Not Murder"

It doesn't say "Thou Shall Not Commit Capital Punishment"

Futhurmore if you took the oft repeated phrase of.."Thou Shall Not Judge" and spun it to your own interpretation..think of what a chacotic mess the world would really be in, even worse than it is now.
We have a right to judge, a long as we are not hypocrites is what Jesus taught.

hope this makes sense and welcome back.

db9

 

[Angela Harlem]

ahh, the lovely handy grey of death murder, manslaughter, capital punishment...dontcha love it? breaking into your neighbour's house and shooting him point blank because he coveted your wife's ass is bad. we call that murder. having your neighbour break into your house because you coveted his wife's ass, and then threatening you so you end up shooting HIM point blank to protect yourself is manslaughter. or accidentally running him over as you back your car out of your driveway as he is sneaking up to do more coveting of ass is also manslaughter. it's still also really bad. sure, that is an accident so it slightly differs. it wasnt intentional.

capital punishment is fully intentional. it's the most careful and premeditated murder there is. its legal murder. it surely was something jesus never taught. i see hypocrisy.

as for not judging, do you think the commandment means legal judgement or moral judgement?

nice to see you back too db69

 

[diamond]

ahh, the lovely handy grey of death murder, manslaughter, capital punishment...dontcha love it? breaking into your neighbour's house and shooting him point blank because he coveted your wife's ass is bad. we call that murder. having your neighbour break into your house because you coveted his wife's ass, and then threatening you so you end up shooting HIM point blank to protect yourself is manslaughter. or accidentally running him over as you back your car out of your driveway as he is sneaking up to do more coveting of ass is also manslaughter. it's still also really bad. sure, that is an accident so it slightly differs. it wasnt intentional.

capital punishment is fully intentional. it's the most careful and premeditated murder there is. its legal murder. it surely was something jesus never taught. i see hypocrisy.

as for not judging, do you think the commandment means legal judgement or moral judgement?

nice to see you back too db69

Angela wrote-

"capital punishment is fully intentional".

correct- it is punishment not murder.

Angela asked about "judging and judgement".

judging means to judge both morally and legally, mostly moral as Christ fulfilled letter of the law(legal). Don't judge immorally. If you are a amoral person, an immoral person or a hypocrite you are ineligible to judge, according to Christ's teachings

db9

 

[Angela Harlem]

So it is a belief that Jesus and God support this. They're all for capital punishment.

Anyone else agree with that?

 

[diamond]

not too many here believe that here in proportion/ratio but i do regardless

 

[BVS]

Is that because you don't believe the Bible? There are many scriptures to back this up.

You obviously haven't read any of my other posts. Things are taken hugely out of context. He ignores several of the teachings of Christ and twists others. He quotes human law, which just because it is in the bible does not make it God's law. For example Leviticus is often taken out of context and offered to us as God's law when in fact it is not. If it was, any man who's ever shaved his sideburns, slept in the same bed with his wife while she was menstrating, touched pork or even eaten shellfish would be sinning. Oh and we could own slaves. So sorry, but I believe in taking the Bible in context and applying it correctly to my life.

 

[namkcuR]

May I add something here(seeing as I did start this thread). I don't mean to offend anybody, but I don't at all care what the bible says. This is NOT a question of religion. It's a question of right and wrong, and that exists without religion. Captial punishment is wrong. It is legal murder. I want you to imagine something. Imagine god forbid a loved one of yours is killed in cold blood. Now imagine the pain you would feel. Now imagine the murderer on death row. Imagine the murder's loved ones, imagine the pain they must feel knowing their loved one is going to die. Do you wish that pain on them? The criminal being behind bars forever is not good enough for you? You want to take from the criminal's family the privilege of getting to visit him every now and then? Capitial punishment is a punishment that goes beyond the criminal. It punishes the criminal's innocent family too, and that is wrong.

There is nothing right about capital punishment. And nothing the bible says will change that fact in my mind.

 

[deep]

So it is a belief that Jesus and God support this. They're all for capital punishment.

I think this used to support one's own beliefs.

How many scriptures support slavery?

 

[nbcrusader]

How many scriptures support slavery?

Do you know the answer to this?


If you knew Scripture, you would know the teachings that call slave trading a sin and that state that there is no difference between slave and free. Radical teaching for its day.

 

[verte76]

Do you know the answer to this?


If you knew Scripture, you would know the teachings that call slave trading a sin and that state that there is no difference between slave and free. Radical teaching for its day.

That's right, and isn't this what motivated the abolitionists? They were considered radical in their day also.

 

[deep]

The Confederates quoted scripture to support their beliefs.




Edited to say:

I am not against scripture.

I do not believe it should be used to support laws,

Separation - is the only thing that keeps this country from becoming our version of a "Shiite Theocracy".

 

[hiphop]

How many scriptures support slavery?

That depends on what version of the Bible you read.

Try the Original African Heritage Study Bible.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Good lord, is diamond the only one with the balls or willingness to highlight this hypocrisy?

And I thought folk were proud of their religion. Funny how everyone scuttles off to 'elsewhere' when a legitimate and rather curious question is raised.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Religion can definitely advocate capital punishment.

"...Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does He command you, so that you may learn wisdom" (6:151)"

See but then it can get very messy because apostacy can be punished with death and the whole Fasaad fi al-ardh comes in.

Basically holy books all come from a different time and while the morality lessons within them have relevance some of the societal and cultural normals do not.

 

[bonosloveslave]

Originally posted by Angela Harlem

In one of the other threads, someone posted regarding how the OT doesn't support murder.
How is this hypocrisy explained? I can see the religious argument for not supporting abortion, I can see the religious argument for not believing in cold blooded murder. So how about this Jury of Peers playing God? Legally killing someone? And the one thing I really do not understand, the deciding on ending another life. A life that (in religious terms) was a gift from God. You're entering God Territory by deciding you can make this decision to remove someone else's gift.

Can you explain that for me please?

Romans 13:1-4.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Boiled down how I see this -

- God is in control of who are leaders are, regardless of whether we think they are good or bad
- "he (our authorities) does not bear the sword in vain" - what other thoughts do you have for what 'bearing the sword' means other than death?
- "he is God's minister" - someone appointed to do God's work - "an avenger"

If you don't think the Bible is accurate or worthy of consideration, then I have nothing else to offer. It is the only standard to which I can hold questions up to and determine an answer.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Thank you bls. I'd agree that the sword means death. I wholeheartedly disagree with the whole view (and I dont mean to be offensive), but if this is how the death penalty is summed up, I cannot question it. All I know is I can never agree to a religion which nurtures such concepts.

 

[hiphop]

- God is in control of who are leaders are, regardless of whether we think they are good or bad

Sounds rather like the concept they had hundreds of years ago when European Emperors were crowned by the Pope.. doesn´t sound very democratic. Also doesn´t sound like a separation between religion and state.

I don´t believe that.

Hm, I really should find out more about when the "Romans" were written and how they were incorporated into the Bible...

 

[bonosloveslave]

Thank you bls. I'd agree that the sword means death. I wholeheartedly disagree with the whole view (and I dont mean to be offensive), but if this is how the death penalty is summed up, I cannot question it. All I know is I can never agree to a religion which nurtures such concepts.

I don't think you are offensive at all - for goodness sakes, obviously this is something that even "Christians" disagree on! This is something that can be a bit hard to rationalize, as most people would rather cling to just the "God is Love" idea and ignore everything else. God is many things, and yes life is precious to Him - but He is also just, and if you take another's life of your own accord, HE will have His vengence through the authorities. He has been known to do it on His own in the past, the whole 'fire and brimstone' thing, but there are also numerous examples of Him commanding the Israelites to destroy various peoples for their wickedness - this was HIS command to do this, not something they thought of on their own, thus not 'murder'. Why didn't He just strike them all dead? Only God knows. But I do know that He absolutely abhors true murder - Cain and David are 2 examples. Why did he choose to show mercy on them and spare their lives? Again, only God knows, but their acts did not go unpunished.

 

[bonosloveslave]

Also doesn´t sound like a separation between religion and state.

That is a fairly recent concept brought forth by men, not God.