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Old 10-13-2004, 07:52 PM   #61
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Originally posted by namkcuR
I'll be short and to the point: The government should stay the hell out of the womb. It is a woman's choice. Perhaps her partner's as well. But for a woman, this is one of the hardest, most painful, most private decisions they will ever make. And the government has absolutely, positively, no right at all to be taking ANY kind of part in a decision that is THAT private. Pro-choice. Period.
So you're saying that even if it's murder they should be able to have an abortion?
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:53 PM   #62
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Unfortunately, that womb is hosting another living being.

It's strange how even in partial-birth abortions, the head of the baby cannot be visibile because then that would equal homocide...interesting.

Ok, well if the govt. should stay out of the the womb, than someone has no legal grounds to be tried for double homocide if one murders a pregnant woman. The pregnancy doesn't really count as a human yet in that case either than by that logic.
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Old 10-13-2004, 07:59 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue
Unfortunately, that womb is hosting another living being.

It's strange how even in partial-birth abortions, the head of the baby cannot be visibile because then that would equal homocide...interesting.

Ok, well if the govt. should stay out of the the womb, than someone has no legal grounds to be tried for double homocide if one murders a pregnant woman. The pregnancy doesn't really count as a human yet in that case either than by that logic.
Are you actually using that as an arugement? That's ridiculous logic you're using. Abortion is a CHOICE. It's a woman CHOOSING to have her pregnancy terminated. If some sick fuck goes and kills a pregnant woman, then of course they should be put in prison because that is PRE-MEDITATED MURDER, and it was NOT a CHOICE that the woman made. There is literally a difference the size of the Grand Canyon here and you apparently don't see it.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:02 PM   #64
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For those of you who have asked for clarification on the Jewish stance on abortion, I give you this passage from a book called the Jewish book of why:

Why is the unborn fetus not considered a "person" under Jewish law?

Quote:
The Sages arrived at their point of view from the statement in the Book of Exodus [21:22] that if a pregnant woman is struck by someone, and her unborn child is destroyed, the person who caused the mishap must pay damages. He is not, however, considered a murderer because the unborn child is not a person. The Talmud is quite specific in describing the status of an unborn child: "If a woman is having difficulty giving birth and her life is in danger, the fetus may be removed surgically, limb by limb, because her life takes precedence over the unborn fetus. However, if the delivery of the child has already begun, and its head or the greater part of its body has already emerged, the child may not be harmed to save the mother, because one person's life may not be take to save another."

As one rabbi has said "So long as the fetus does not enter the 'atmosphere of the world' it is not considered a person." However, despite the fact that in Jewish law the unborn child is not considered a person, the law does not approve of abortion unless there is sufficient justification.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:05 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR


Are you actually using that as an arugement? That's ridiculous logic you're using. Abortion is a CHOICE. It's a woman CHOOSING to have her pregnancy terminated. If some sick fuck goes and kills a pregnant woman, then of course they should be put in prison because that is PRE-MEDITATED MURDER, and it was NOT a CHOICE that the woman made. There is literally a difference the size of the Grand Canyon here and you apparently don't see it.
For murder of the woman...yes. But for the baby? Why's that. Why is the baby protected against termination from everyone except the mother?
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:06 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
For those of you who have asked for clarification on the Jewish stance on abortion, I give you this passage from a book called the Jewish book of why:

Why is the unborn fetus not considered a "person" under Jewish law?


Interesting conclusion from OT sources....God doesn't like murder....I think the Psalms among other Hebrew literature make a strong case to the contrary...

Jewish law might not nessacarily jive with God's will anyways...one is manmade and the other isn't...
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:08 PM   #67
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i was always tied up on the issue of abortion, but john kerry's view about not imposing personal beliefs on America (was really very new and very sensible view on the topic
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:10 PM   #68
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It's not all about giving birth to an unborn - alive child. What happens if you have a child that die's at 4 to 5 months of pregnancy and then have to wait till you go into labor to deliver a dead baby?
If abortion is abolished this mother to would have to wait untill she "naturally"expelled the dead child. This actually happened to someone I know. She had an option that alot of people feel is not her right to decide. There is no middle ground within alot of churches and she had to go with her own desire to eventually have other children, and to terminate this pregnancy.
It was not easy for her or her family, but all understood. This happens more than you know.
So you may say "well this is different" but it isn't if you say women don't have a right to choose - at all.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:10 PM   #69
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:18 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by sue4u2
It's not all about giving birth to an unborn - alive child. What happens if you have a child that die's at 4 to 5 months of pregnancy and then have to wait till you go into labor to deliver a dead baby?
If abortion is abolished this mother to would have to wait untill she "naturally"expelled the dead child. This actually happened to someone I know. She had an option that alot of people feel is not her right to decide. There is no middle ground within alot of churches and she had to go with her own desire to eventually have other children, and to terminate this pregnancy.
It was not easy for her or her family, but all understood. This happens more than you know.
So you may say "well this is different" but it isn't if you say women don't have a right to choose - at all.

That is so far in a different direction...it really is. Are you going to be saying that emergency c-sections won't be allowed either? If the child isn't alive...waiting for a natural expulsion is potentially dangerous to the mother...no doubt traumatic no matter what desicsion is made.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:22 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by sue4u2
It's not all about giving birth to an unborn - alive child. What happens if you have a child that die's at 4 to 5 months of pregnancy and then have to wait till you go into labor to deliver a dead baby?
If it has died naturally then extraction of a dead fetus is not abortion.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:33 PM   #72
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I find it interesting how most people who say "it's the choice of the woman. Period." never comment on wheather they actually think abortion is killing, which I think is by far the most important question.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:47 PM   #73
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Abortion is killing...there is no way around that fact.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:50 PM   #74
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Yes, but so is eating meat and washing your hands.
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Old 10-13-2004, 08:52 PM   #75
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Yes, but so is eating meat and washing your hands.
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