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Old 10-13-2004, 02:30 PM   #16
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I don't care what you do with YOUR body, piercings, tatoos, shave your head, cut yourself with glass, streak at a football game it's your business. I don't even oppose assisted suicide if that's what an adult decides for his or herself. But abortion involves someone else's body too, not just the mother's.

I'm going to try not to rant, but the thing that bothers me most is it being justified as a 'choice' and a 'right.' I don't see there should be any more right to kill an unborn child because it's an inconvenience to you than I believe a person should be able to eliminate an ex spouse, rotten boss or nosey neighbor for making their life a living hell. The term 'right to choose' does not fly with me.

The only time it should be legal is rape and incest, and surely the female knows when that occured and should take a morning after pill (and file a police report on the assailant, morning after pill for forgotten birth control and passionate night before too), if the mother's health is in danger, or if the baby is found to have such severe deformities it will die anyway after suffering. In any case, I agree that partial birth abortion is completely evil, murder most henious (cut the spinal cord, suck out the brain, crush the skull) and should never be done, and yes doctors should be considered murderers for doing this. Sorry, I know a lot of you will hate me for saying this, but I feel very strongly that life is precious and not disposible for reasons of someone's inconvenience. I also don't subcribe to the 'better off dead' theory, might as well kill it now it might have a crap life. You never know. To live is to hope. I don't even believe that for dogs and cats at the pound, and I don't believe it for human babies.

On the subject of back alley/driving underground, remember that most of that happened in the time when there were no birth control pills or most of the contraceptives we have today.

I also want to say that it's not a question of religion for me, it's just common sense right and wrong.
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:33 PM   #17
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Once again we are back to the difference of opinion.

I will not go into a war on this back and forth because my opinion won't be swayed anymore than anyone else's. Many women died for us to have the right to choose.
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
In any case, I agree that partial birth abortion is completely evil, murder most henious (cut the spinal cord, suck out the brain, crush the skull) and should never be done, and yes doctors should be considered murderers for doing this.
I've always wondered if there isn't a lot of misinformation - or rather, misconceptions - floating around on this issue. How often is this procedure actually performed? I've seen indications that this is almost always a procedure reserved for when the life of the mother is in danger, but I haven't come across any kind of study or statistics to know if this is really the case.

It's always seemed to me to be a case of the right wing intentionally inflaming passions on the issue, while ignoring the actual facts on the ground, as it were. But I don't know for sure. Is this procedure something that's used simply as a convenience for the mother? I don't know, but I'd like to, and in the absence of further information I'm rather skeptical.
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:42 PM   #19
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To me its not a religious issue at all. It is a determining factor on whether we want to be a utilitarian society or not. Does the end justify the means? If so, that's a slippery slope. Does than mean euthanasia is OK? Suicide? How bad does a person have to be to deserve death if an innocent can be killed indescriminantly? On the flip side, I understand the argument of driving it underground and all the special scenarios that go along with it. You can either disagree with it in concept or practice, or both. A disagreement in concept is something I just don't get, especially with adoption waiting periods, etc.
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Old 10-13-2004, 02:56 PM   #20
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u2kitten, you mean the birth control pills and contraception that the administration wants to keep teenagers in the dark about? I would be very interested to find out how people in other countries feel about this issue. My understanding is that in Russia, abortion is a form of birth control. I also think that since abortion has been around as long as we people have, it might be better to allow people to use it at their discretion when they feel it is necessary. I can understand your feeling about it... I don't understand the need to force others to do what you (religiously?)
believe.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:10 PM   #21
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"Life of the mother" for partial-birth abortion does not fly with me - if her life is at risk, it is just as easy if not easier to deliver the baby by C-section than to scrounge up all the vacuum/extraction equipment which is not going to be that handy in a regular hospital. All you need is a scalpel blade to get the baby out by C-section. If the baby is big enough that it needs to be 'partially delivered' first, it should be big enough to be brought out by C-section.

'Life of the mother' is a cop-out in 99.9% of cases.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:12 PM   #22
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My body my choice, period.

I dont want anyone elses religious beliefs imposed on me, and i wont impode mine on others.

Also, a lot fo the people here have lived in a country where abortion has been legal for most of their lives, i didnt live in this country for the first 25 years of ly life. And to this day i dont think ANY goverment has the right to tell me what i can do or not to my body.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by youtwohearts
for me it is the fact over someone telling me what I can or can't do with my own body.
For a lot of pro-lifers, this is the best example of our difference of opinion. The way I see it, it's not about YOU or YOUR body, it's about the CHILD and HIS body.

Besides, there's lots of other rules about things you can't do with your body....
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:32 PM   #24
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In every fiber of my being I believe abortion is wrong. I have felt this way since I witnessed my first ultra-sound. Since that day, I have always believed the fetus to be a life, a soul.

I also believe it would be wrong to deny a woman the right to chose because I cannot stand the thoughts of back alley abortions endangering another life.

I would encourage anyone considering an abortion to look into alternatives, there are so many aching to have a child.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:39 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by youtwohearts
Many women died for us to have the right to choose.
7,000 unborn babies died today in the US alone and 126,000 in the world so you can have your right.

Why Abortions Are Performed
The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control.

Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest;

1% because of fetal abnormalities;

3% due to the mother's health problems.


Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5%
Wants no (more) children: 7.9%
Cannot afford a baby: 21.3%
Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8%
Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1%
Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2%
Risk to maternal health: 2.8%
Risk to fetal health: 3.3%
Other: 2.1%


I see these statistics and want to puke. That is "my opinion"
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:47 PM   #26
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Same opinion as last time, i don't like the idea of abortions but there are some circumstances where it's "less bad" than getting the baby. Diamond mentioned some, a baby which will have pain his whole life and die after a few days because of his birth deformities (Look at the babies of the women of the Bikini Islands after the a-bomb tests for example) is another example.
So... young parents might choose wrong when they have the freedom of choice. The only thing i can imagine which is worse than letting those people decide is a government who thinks that they can decide better than the parents.
I like the german modell here - every women who wants to do an abortion has to go to counceling for several hours after that it's her decision.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:50 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
For a lot of pro-lifers, this is the best example of our difference of opinion. The way I see it, it's not about YOU or YOUR body, it's about the CHILD and HIS body.
According to who? In the Jewish faith, the mother and child are one entity until the child is born. The soul does not even enter the embryo until 40 days after conception for males and 80 days after conception for females. And rabbis have said that abortion is justified if the mother's life is in danger, if the baby could be born with severe deformities or if the mother is not mentally fit to care for a child.

Many pro-lifers I hear from are basing their decision on their Christian faith and Christian upbringing. What if your belief based on your religion is different from someone else's religion? Should your beliefs be used to create a law against someone else's beliefs? The problem I have with pro-lifers is that they believe their morality should become law regardless of what other religions believe or people who don't follow a religion believe. If you want to protest, so be it. If you want to help women find alternatives, fine. But this country is great because it's laws are not regulated by a particular religion and I don't want it to start now.

I agree with Dread -- look for alternatives if you are in that position and I think we should go a step further. If you get an abortion, the doctor should be required to tell you ALL of your options. But in the end, it is the decision of the woman.
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Old 10-13-2004, 03:58 PM   #28
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I am pro-choice myself. Does that mean I like abortion as an option...no, of course not. I think that's what the pro-life side tends to forget. Just because I'm pro-choice doesn't mean I *like* it, or respect life less, or believe in it as a form of birth control. Ideally, I think adoption is the best choice.

Morally, abortion is difficult for me. I honestly believe that life doesn't begin at conception. I think the *potential* for life is there. Considering you can miscarry in the first three months without ever realizing you were pregnant leads me to this conclusion. I don't think life truly begins until consciousness develops--there's movement, response to stimuli, etc. Of course, defining that is a whole can of worms on it's own.

So, morally, I do believe there should be a legal time limit on abortion because at some point, you have to take responsibility for yourself and your body. In my own mind, at 4 months you now have another life, who should possess the same rights as you do. The option should be taken from you to terminate the pregnancy.

I'm thinking out loud here, so forgive me if I'm rambling. Regardless, I do believe very strongly that the choice has to be there. Having heard the horror stories from my dad, or the news, of what "parents" do to their children, I really do believe that some children would be better off not to be born at all. No one can tell me that an infant being beaten or shaken to death had a better life than if their mother had just chosen abortion instead.(Of course, abortion is legal and these people still didn't choose it, so perhaps this is a moot point.)
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Old 10-13-2004, 04:05 PM   #29
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Well....I work part-time at a national hotline for women in crisis pregnancies. This hotline locates local pregnancy centers for these women that do not provide or refer for abortion, although we do give information about the procedures themselves, as well as any legal info pertinant to their state and what they should know to protect themselves in case they go elsewhere for an abortion.

The women I talk to usually have no clue what exactly happens during the surgergicalprocedures.

The women are shocked when I tell them that half of RU-486 is medication that was given to cancer patients.

And ALOT of women want abortions because of reasons outside the child's fault--for example you have no idea how many "I cheated on my boyfriend/husband and if I can figure out the baby is his then I'll keep it otherwise I want to abort" They are shocked when I tell them that whether or not they abort they are still going to have to deal with the deeper issue, which is not the pregnancy.

I was almost an abortion. My father didn't want me. My parents were even married at the time and my dad didn't want me. I am so thankful that my mother gave me a voice when I had no voice.

What scares me the most about abortion is that people want it without know what it really is. Alot of women feel rushed to make a desiscion about thier pregnancy and they make choices without getting all the information they need...whether those women know it or not they are mother's when discovering they are pregnant. They aren't just women with a parasite.
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Old 10-13-2004, 04:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky
The problem I have with pro-lifers is that they believe their morality should become law regardless of what other religions believe or people who don't follow a religion believe. If you want to protest, so be it. If you want to help women find alternatives, fine. But this country is great because it's laws are not regulated by a particular religion and I don't want it to start now.
That reminds me of an incident at my college. We had a pro-life group come in and set up *huge* anti-abortion displays (and I'm talking 4-story building huge) that included not just your usual abortion propaganda, but Holocaust and animal testing photos too. It was surrounded by people hasselling you to debate with them.

Anyway, a friend of mine (who is strongly pro-life) was visibly pregnant at the time and I told her she might want to avoid going that way on campus. She was stuck going past anyway, and one of the pro-life people approached her and started hasselling her as to what her plans were for her baby--was she married?

It really made me laugh, because here was a young, single woman who was choosing to keep and raise her baby. This should have been their ideal, right? But they were giving her
grief for it. It was clear they took one look at her, judged her an unfit parent, and thought she should give her baby up for adoption. (It makes me wish there was a way to tell if a man had fathered a child...it would be nice if they were the ones stopped and hasseled for a change!)

I'm not assigning this opinion to ALL pro-lifers, of course, but it was an interesting look at their morality. All life is sacred, but it should only exist within a stereotypical family unit.

I've heard it said here that if you legalize abortion, where does it stop? Here's the same argument in reverse...if you make it illegal, where does legislating ethics stop?
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