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Old 10-15-2004, 12:55 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue
I am anti-abortion but because I feel there are SO few cases where a woman might feel warrarented....
But who decides what is warrented and what isn't? Does anyone really know what another person is dealing with? As someone noted in the abortion companion thread, what one person might find totally unmanageble, another may have no problem handling. The inverse is also true.
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Old 10-15-2004, 01:00 AM   #152
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Bleh...
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Old 10-15-2004, 06:49 AM   #153
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Originally posted by iacrobat




Sorry, my fault. What I should have said was: are you really comparing people who feel it is humane to abort a severely retarded fetus, and those who have had an abortion for this reason to Hitler?

Maybe I've got my history all mixed up, but I always believed Hitler was trying to help along the master race, gene pool, and so forth, that it was not an attempt to be humane.

Starsgoblue:

PP?

What I am saying is that it isn't humane. They are essentially making the decision based on the same reasoning Hitler used to do away with "flawed" people. That reasoning is essentially, they are of no use to society, they serve no purpose, they have nothing to offer and no one has anything to offer them. Now his motives were different, yes, he wanted to bring about a master race, but at the end of the day, I see the reasoning for both to be quite similar.

In truth it's the entire notion of playing God in general that is wrong. Aborting a child that is going to be born with defects in the end is no different than aborting one that is found to be perfectly healthy. It is taking on a role of saying who can be born and who can't and then justifying it by saying its the wise, or (in cases such as we are discussing) the humane thing to do.


Carrie
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Old 10-15-2004, 07:06 AM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic



What I am saying is that it isn't humane. They are essentially making the decision based on the same reasoning Hitler used to do away with "flawed" people. That reasoning is essentially, they are of no use to society, they serve no purpose, they have nothing to offer and no one has anything to offer them. Now his motives were different, yes, he wanted to bring about a master race, but at the end of the day, I see the reasoning for both to be quite similar.

In truth it's the entire notion of playing God in general that is wrong. Aborting a child that is going to be born with defects in the end is no different than aborting one that is found to be perfectly healthy. It is taking on a role of saying who can be born and who can't and then justifying it by saying its the wise, or (in cases such as we are discussing) the humane thing to do.


Carrie
I don't think the reasoning is the same. If I were in that position, I honestly don't know what I'd do. Generally I am against abortion, but think people should be able to choose. What I would consider, and I believe what other people might consider is how the child will be affected, quality of life, etc, and how they themselves will be affected. It is not a question of stepping back and coldly desiding if your child will be of any value to society. I think it is entirely personal.

The motives are essential and they are what marks the differenc between a person making this decision versus a man trying to shape the genetic makeup of a people.

Bad comparison.

Edited to add:

May I also say that I am not sure that it is playing God. Humans obviously have a very significant role in creating the fetus, in creating new life. It really isn't an act of God.
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Old 10-15-2004, 08:59 AM   #155
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iacrobat,

I don't think its a bad comparison. I have stated why I feel as I do. The reasoning counts as well. The rationale that someone should not come into existence because they are going to be challanged is what? It's making the decision that they don't deserve to live just because of that. That a challanged chilld's life is not worth as much as a healthy child's life is the same mentality that Hitler had. I don't understand how you can't see that?

Yes we have an active roll in creating life. To take a life though? That is in essence is deciding when that life ends. If that isn't playing God what is it?

Take care,

Carrie
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:05 AM   #156
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I'd like to compliment everyone who has replied to this thread (plus to the current one on the death penalty, and the companion to the abortion thread). Even though all are expressing strongly held and heartfelt opinions, there is virtually no sniping or personal attacks.

Just thought I'd note this. We always hear when a thread goes bad, but these threads are good examples of sensitive issues sensibly discussed.
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:11 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
iacrobat,

I don't think its a bad comparison. I have stated why I feel as I do. The reasoning counts as well. The rationale that someone should not come into existence because they are going to be challanged is what? It's making the decision that they don't deserve to live just because of that. That a challanged chilld's life is not worth as much as a healthy child's life is the same mentality that Hitler had. I don't understand how you can't see that?

Yes we have an active roll in creating life. To take a life though? That is in essence is deciding when that life ends. If that isn't playing God what is it?

Take care,

Carrie
Ah but when a normal murder is commited, one existing person killing another, you don't see everyone saying "He played God! He played God!", do you? Few people say it in that scenario, and as long as that remains true, you can't use it in this scenario.
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Old 10-15-2004, 09:16 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
iacrobat,

I don't think its a bad comparison. I have stated why I feel as I do. The reasoning counts as well. The rationale that someone should not come into existence because they are going to be challanged is what? It's making the decision that they don't deserve to live just because of that. That a challanged chilld's life is not worth as much as a healthy child's life is the same mentality that Hitler had. I don't understand how you can't see that?

Yes we have an active roll in creating life. To take a life though? That is in essence is deciding when that life ends. If that isn't playing God what is it?

Take care,

Carrie
I don't think comparing people who have an honest difference of opinion with you to Hitler is needed. Have you ever taken care of a severly disabled person? Not to say you wouldn't if you had to, but if you haven't, you can't possibly know what it is like.

If you believe your view is the ONLY correct one, isn't that acting as if you are god too?

And this spring my siblings and I, after discussing all options with several doctors, made the decision to "pull the plug" on my mom. And she then died. Yes, we decided when her life ended...we knew driving to the hospital that last morning that was the day she would die. Are you going to tell me we had the "same mentality that Hitler had?"
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Old 10-15-2004, 02:42 PM   #159
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namkcur,

When someone murders someone yes they are deciding when that person lifes ends and they have no right to make that decision. That is why there are laws against murder.

indra,

I am so sorry to hear of your loss. I lost my dad on Thanksgiving Day 1999 and I still miss him.

I really don't know how to approach this issue of life support, seeing as how it hits so close to home to you. I have to say I think it is a bit different though. I can not see that one making the decision to take someone off of life support is the same as saying someone with severe defects doesn't have a right to even begin life. It is two different scenarios. Maybe I am wrong.

Also, if one has an opinion they usually stand by it? That is the whole point of discourse. I don't see how standing by ones opinion could be taking on the roll of God.

At any rate, you two take care....

Carrie
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Old 10-15-2004, 03:01 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I'd like to compliment everyone who has replied to this thread (plus to the current one on the death penalty, and the companion to the abortion thread). Even though all are expressing strongly held and heartfelt opinions, there is virtually no sniping or personal attacks.

Just thought I'd note this. We always hear when a thread goes bad, but these threads are good examples of sensitive issues sensibly discussed.

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Old 10-15-2004, 03:42 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by thacraic
iacrobat,

I don't think its a bad comparison. I have stated why I feel as I do. The reasoning counts as well. The rationale that someone should not come into existence because they are going to be challanged is what? It's making the decision that they don't deserve to live just because of that. That a challanged chilld's life is not worth as much as a healthy child's life is the same mentality that Hitler had. I don't understand how you can't see that?

Yes we have an active roll in creating life. To take a life though? That is in essence is deciding when that life ends. If that isn't playing God what is it?

Take care,

Carrie
Sorry, I just don't see it.

I don't think people actually measure the value of a child's life against another's.

Implying that killing someone is playing God also implies that when someone dies, it is their time. Is that so?
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Old 10-16-2004, 03:18 PM   #162
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What I don't understand is how people can say "well I don't believe in abortion but I think everyone should make their own choice". I just don't think that's right. That's basically saying "I believe if you're having an abortion you're murdering, but who am I tell tell anyone not to murder?". That just makes no sense. How can you sit back and say murder should be allowed?

Osama Bin Laden truly believed that what he did on 9/11 was right. Those terrorists truly believed it was ok to murder with all their heart. Does that mean it was right? No. I'm not saying people who are pro-choice are terrorists or anything, I'm just saying murder is murder and it's not just a matter of beliefs!! If an innocent life is intentionally being destroyed It can't be justified no matter what. It sounds close-minded of me but I believe that that's the truth, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, plain and simple.

I'm tired of the "it's my stomach so it's my choice" thing too. I think that's just stupid. Who the heck decided that's how things are? WHY is it ok to kill a completely innocent child just because it's in your stomach? It's a person! How can you WANT TO KILL AN INNOCENT BABY??? That's exactly what abortion is! What ever happened "though shalt not kill"? The Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt kill if it's in thine stomach" or some such BS. Of course I don't expect non-christians to care what the Bible says.

I'm just tired of people treating right and wrong in a totally relative fashion. Our society doesn't work that way. Some people believe it's perfectly fine to do completely destructive things and they believe it with all their heart. Does that mean our society should allow it? Of course not. There's a right and there's a wrong. If you aren't doing the right thing you're doing the wrong thing wheather you believe it or not.

People can do things I believe are wrong but I usually won't care too much just because they're not affecting anyone else. The thing about abortion is you can't get around the fact that it's AT LEAST a potential murder. Period. I don't think that's right under any circumstance, and I don't believe our society should allow it. I believe anyone who disagrees is wrong.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:20 PM   #163
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Originally posted by shart1780
What I don't understand is how people can say "well I don't believe in abortion but I think everyone should make their own choice". I just don't think that's right. That's basically saying "I believe if you're having an abortion you're murdering, but who am I tell tell anyone not to murder?". That just makes no sense. How can you sit back and say murder should be allowed?

Osama Bin Laden truly believed that what he did on 9/11 was right. Those terrorists truly believed it was ok to murder with all their heart. Does that mean it was right? No. I'm not saying people who are pro-choice are terrorists or anything, I'm just saying murder is murder and it's not just a matter of beliefs!! If an innocent life is intentionally being destroyed It can't be justified no matter what. It sounds close-minded of me but I believe that that's the truth, and anyone who disagrees is wrong, plain and simple.

I'm tired of the "it's my stomach so it's my choice" thing too. I think that's just stupid. Who the heck decided that's how things are? WHY is it ok to kill a completely innocent child just because it's in your stomach? It's a person! How can you WANT TO KILL AN INNOCENT BABY??? That's exactly what abortion is! What ever happened "though shalt not kill"? The Bible doesn't say "Thou shalt kill if it's in thine stomach" or some such BS. Of course I don't expect non-christians to care what the Bible says.

I'm just tired of people treating right and wrong in a totally relative fashion. Our society doesn't work that way. Some people believe it's perfectly fine to do completely destructive things and they believe it with all their heart. Does that mean our society should allow it? Of course not. There's a right and there's a wrong. If you aren't doing the right thing you're doing the wrong thing wheather you believe it or not.

People can do things I believe are wrong but I usually won't care too much just because they're not affecting anyone else. The thing about abortion is you can't get around the fact that it's AT LEAST a potential murder. Period. I don't think that's right under any circumstance, and I don't believe our society should allow it. I believe anyone who disagrees is wrong.
And you can believe whatever you want. But I can too. And I will.

Again, you really think babies are in their mothers stomachs? Perhaps you should read a book on "the facts of life" dear. A baby is not in it's mother's stomach (unless she's eaten it), but in her womb, or more specifically, her uterus.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:51 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


And you can believe whatever you want. But I can too. And I will.

Again, you really think babies are in their mothers stomachs? Perhaps you should read a book on "the facts of life" dear. A baby is not in it's mother's stomach (unless she's eaten it), but in her womb, or more specifically, her uterus.
You know what I mean dude...

And if you believe that abortions are fine then tell me why. Tell me why you believe that either the baby isn't a human, or why you believe that the fact that it's in its mother's WOMB makes it fine for her to kill it. Tell me WHY you believe these things. Don't just tell me you believe it because you feel that way, because that's completely baseless.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:54 PM   #165
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Shart does that mean that masturbation is killing children? Those are babies as well? What about menstruation? Those are dead children as well. The point is that people who are for abortion do not see what they are aborting as children, but as potential children. Your belief that a soul/life begins with the sperm and egg attaching to each other is not a scientifically proven fact, it is a belief. No one is for killing children. The difference in opinion is when a fetus becomes a child.
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