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Old 07-24-2007, 01:05 PM   #106
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


I've never quite been able to wrap my head around the idea that a so-called loving God would toss his children into the so-called burning fires of hell for disobeying. It's a completely insane idea to me. "God is love" and yet will burn his children for eternity?
Hell was not created for humanity, but for the devil and his angels.

God does not choose that people go there. People choose to go there, and inherent to the notion of free will is that people choose what they want.

If you've ever had a friend who is mired in self-destructive patterns and refuses to come out, despite the best efforts of everyone to intervene, the notion of Hell suddenly makes a lot more sense.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:26 PM   #107
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Originally posted by nathan1977

If you've ever had a friend who is mired in self-destructive patterns and refuses to come out, despite the best efforts of everyone to intervene, the notion of Hell suddenly makes a lot more sense.
No it doesn't, not to me. And I've had lots of self-destructive friends. Sure, they may be "in hell" but I'm talking about the idea of the biblical hell as a literal fiery place that God apparently "allows" people to go to if they don't follow his direction. Equally absurd to me is the notion that someone can commit heinous crimes all their life and on their deathbed say "I'm sorry, please forgive me" and all is well.

It's a debate I'm not particularly interested in engaging in, having left the Christian church a long time ago never to return, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:33 PM   #108
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I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:39 PM   #109
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.


this makes logical sense to me.

relams of fire and brimstone do not.

unless it's like this:

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Old 07-24-2007, 01:41 PM   #110
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i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:41 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.
I wish this were accurate, it's not- only wishful thinking and very popular today.

dbs
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:55 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.


Simple, logical and the most likely scenario, imo. Well put, Irvine.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:20 PM   #113
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Originally posted by diamond


I wish this were accurate, it's not- only wishful thinking and very popular today.

dbs
Right, so we take observations like oxygen deprivation in test pilots, investigate the causes of the experiences and come up with an explanation and this is wishful thinking?

Although I quite like the implicit thing with having an afterlife being worse than not having one for an infidel.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:40 PM   #114
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Originally posted by anitram
I absolutely reject the concept of hell.
Me too.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:16 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.
I think the critical concept in the whole idea of everlasting torment, whether it involves flames or simply the torment that comes with the absence of God, is the concept of the immortal soul--which is another doctrine that I (and my church) reject.

If the soul is indeed immortal, then hell becomes a necessity. The soul is not immortal, then hell is no longer a necessity either.

Ahhhhhh. . .my time is SO limited. I really want to engage fully in this discussion but I just can't. . .flight leaves at 6 A.M. tomorrow morning! Maybe, if I can get access to a computer on Thursday I can weigh in further.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:18 PM   #116
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Have a good trip.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:19 PM   #117
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Have a good trip.
Thanks. It's a little sad to see the summer end so quickly. I'll catch up with you guys in a bit.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:21 PM   #118
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Originally posted by all_i_want


what kind of a sick, twisted god would first give you free will and then send you to hell cause you wont do what he wants but decide to sin, sin, sin? let me tell you: the kind that doesnt exist.

and thats the word.
Yup. You hit the nail on the head.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:22 PM   #119
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Originally posted by Irvine511




how else do people live with startling economic inequality in a country where the top 1% receives more income than the bottom 40%?
It was actually this very issue that got me thinking about the definition of "sin" in the first place. I'll explain more about that later.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:23 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.

I'm with you on this

I was actually talking with one of my coworkers today about how we're skeptical of people who try to scare other people into faith, and fire and brimstone is one of those tactics.

I also agree with Dieman's earlier statement on what sin is, it is a choice a person makes, IMO when they knowingly do something wrong when they also know they can/should do the right thing. Or something like that. I'm not really sure myself.
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