maycocksean
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Yolland, in resposne to your earlier post there, I have to concede that yes my definition of sin may not fit the "classical" use of the term in Christian circles.
And I know it's pretty arrogant of me to conclude that my slightly different definition of sin is the "Correct" one, but what can I say! That's what I think! To quote Rich Mullins, speaking on the same issue of social justice "I know this goes against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers, but they're wrong. They're not bad. Just wrong."
That said, I shall continue. . .I've got a little time now
Sin on the micro level--the personal level (which is where most of the discussion on this thread has been focused)--can be defined a number of ways:
It can be defined as actions motivated by selfishness rather than love.
It can be defined as, described by Dreadsox, as seperating oneself from God--who in the Christian tradition is properly understood as the source of all Good (not the pissy, cantankerous and capricious old fellow who doesn't want us to have any fun).
It can be defined as anything that hurts you or someone else. (And why would hurting yourself be considered a sin, you ask? Well, for starters, how often has anyone ever hurt "just themselves" without it ultimately taking a toll on the ones who care for them?)
It can be defined as breaking God's law.
In reality, all the of the defintions above are really different takes on the same thing. No one definition excludes the others, and all the definitions contain the essence of each other one in it. (At least from a Christian perspective. I do think the first and third definitions could be used in a strictly non-religious sense though).
As to the question of who is a sinner, it seems clear to me the answer is everyone (though I've sure met some people that seem to be awful close to the sinless mark, though in most cases that's because it turns out it's usually just that I don't know them that well). It may sound silly, but this why I think it's true that sooner or later every single person you know--if you get to know them well enough--ill irritate, annoy, or anger you, at least on occasion. Whether it's their selfishness, pettiness, impatience or my own that causes the aggravation, it matters not.
I'm not going to speak for anyone else, for me saying I am sinner is a simple acknowledgment that "I haven't gotten there yet.' I could be a better person. There are still many ways I can grow. My "pretty good" is not good enough. Provided you don't beat yourself up over it, I'm not sure why acknowledging that is such a horrible, self-loathing thing. Believing that one should be better than one is should not necessarily lead to self-hatred!
And it's not so benign as a kind of accidental failing either. There are times when I CHOOSE to be unkind, times when I start to "believe my own press" and let an exalted opinion of myself go to my head, time when I frankly find myself unconcerned about the suffering of others outside my little sphere, times when I am selfish and times when I let fear rather than love rule the day. The reality is that I might not be carrying out the basest impulses, after all, again to quote my man Rich Mullins "I don't cheat on my taxes, don't cheat on my girl. . ." the fact remains that the impulses are there. They come out in smaller ways, perhaps less visibly hurtful, but they hurt nonetheless.
Much of sin on the "micro level"--especially beyond the general "don't murder, rape, and pillage"-- is intensely personal and by and large should be left for people to sort out between them and God. It seems like public judgement of sin should be limited to those areas where the harm is immediate and obvious to others. Trying to reprimand other individuals (this does not preclude talking about it in general though) for the less "obvious" (but no less damaging sins) like pride is a dubious proposition. Believers begin to run into trouble when they start arbitrarily creating and/or ranking lists of sins. And yes, Irvine is right, usually when this happens, it's because someone wants to control and manipulate others, which is of course. . .sinful.
And I know it's pretty arrogant of me to conclude that my slightly different definition of sin is the "Correct" one, but what can I say! That's what I think! To quote Rich Mullins, speaking on the same issue of social justice "I know this goes against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers, but they're wrong. They're not bad. Just wrong."
That said, I shall continue. . .I've got a little time now
Sin on the micro level--the personal level (which is where most of the discussion on this thread has been focused)--can be defined a number of ways:
It can be defined as actions motivated by selfishness rather than love.
It can be defined as, described by Dreadsox, as seperating oneself from God--who in the Christian tradition is properly understood as the source of all Good (not the pissy, cantankerous and capricious old fellow who doesn't want us to have any fun).
It can be defined as anything that hurts you or someone else. (And why would hurting yourself be considered a sin, you ask? Well, for starters, how often has anyone ever hurt "just themselves" without it ultimately taking a toll on the ones who care for them?)
It can be defined as breaking God's law.
In reality, all the of the defintions above are really different takes on the same thing. No one definition excludes the others, and all the definitions contain the essence of each other one in it. (At least from a Christian perspective. I do think the first and third definitions could be used in a strictly non-religious sense though).
As to the question of who is a sinner, it seems clear to me the answer is everyone (though I've sure met some people that seem to be awful close to the sinless mark, though in most cases that's because it turns out it's usually just that I don't know them that well). It may sound silly, but this why I think it's true that sooner or later every single person you know--if you get to know them well enough--ill irritate, annoy, or anger you, at least on occasion. Whether it's their selfishness, pettiness, impatience or my own that causes the aggravation, it matters not.
I'm not going to speak for anyone else, for me saying I am sinner is a simple acknowledgment that "I haven't gotten there yet.' I could be a better person. There are still many ways I can grow. My "pretty good" is not good enough. Provided you don't beat yourself up over it, I'm not sure why acknowledging that is such a horrible, self-loathing thing. Believing that one should be better than one is should not necessarily lead to self-hatred!
And it's not so benign as a kind of accidental failing either. There are times when I CHOOSE to be unkind, times when I start to "believe my own press" and let an exalted opinion of myself go to my head, time when I frankly find myself unconcerned about the suffering of others outside my little sphere, times when I am selfish and times when I let fear rather than love rule the day. The reality is that I might not be carrying out the basest impulses, after all, again to quote my man Rich Mullins "I don't cheat on my taxes, don't cheat on my girl. . ." the fact remains that the impulses are there. They come out in smaller ways, perhaps less visibly hurtful, but they hurt nonetheless.
Much of sin on the "micro level"--especially beyond the general "don't murder, rape, and pillage"-- is intensely personal and by and large should be left for people to sort out between them and God. It seems like public judgement of sin should be limited to those areas where the harm is immediate and obvious to others. Trying to reprimand other individuals (this does not preclude talking about it in general though) for the less "obvious" (but no less damaging sins) like pride is a dubious proposition. Believers begin to run into trouble when they start arbitrarily creating and/or ranking lists of sins. And yes, Irvine is right, usually when this happens, it's because someone wants to control and manipulate others, which is of course. . .sinful.