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Old 07-23-2007, 04:49 AM   #61
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Whenever I bring this point up I usually get the same response. Something like "but it's bad because it hurt my friend!!". So? That's my whole point. Why is hurting your friend bad in a material universe? Why is "hurt" bad? Why is pain bad? Why is complete chaos bad? Why is ANYTHING bad? There would be no bad. Like I said, just right or left. Actions and reactions.
Why is it easy to commit genocide? Why is it easy to murder people from another tribe? Why is it hard to kill a family member?

People do horrific things all the time and while you wax poetical about how perfect humanity is and how this must mean that we are imbued with holy guidance it overlooks this. Empathy and social bonding is important for societies, human beings are social animals and that trait has evolved as a concequence of that, it improves the opportunities for reproductive success within any community. Now the notion of sin and god given goodness may be simple to get your head around but it does get undercut by harmful acts, evil. The burden of the believer becomes either a philosophy of theodicy and/or one of exclusion; things which are not needed in a world without God.

See how far human empathy gets in instances of clan warfare or pretty much any field in the history of human conflict, people are able to do terrible things when they need resources or just have that war switch turned on.
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Old 07-23-2007, 04:54 AM   #62
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Because we have consciousness and because we have self-consciousness. Because we can conceptualize. Because we can observe consequences and understand the connections between our actions and those consequences. Because we can recognize what is similar between us and others. Because we choose to matter.
Why do those things matter? Is that somehow "good"?
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:02 AM   #63
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In the scheme of the universe no, but from the perspective of a sentient organism definitely yes.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:05 AM   #64
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Why is chaos in a community somehow a bad thing? It's just atoms more frequntly bouncing around, more unpleasent brainwaves and less flesh clumps entering the world.

You treat survival as this thing that's somehow sacred. Where do you get that notion? Why would the universe care if another little ant farm got crushed?
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:09 AM   #65
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
In the scheme of the universe no, but from the perspective of a sentient organism definitely yes.
Why does the view of a sentient organism mean anything? I doubt the universe can tell a sentient organism from a non-sentient one.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:10 AM   #66
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The last part is the key, it is about how well we can compete for resources and reproduce.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:12 AM   #67
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Originally posted by shart1780


Why does the view of a sentient organism mean anything? I doubt the univerese can tell a sentient organism from a non-sentient one.
And if you read the statement then it agrees, but the notion of a self aware intellect (mistake in earlier statement) is important. No outside force gives human life meaning, it is given meaning by the indiividual.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:13 AM   #68
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I'm saying there are basic concepts that are ingrained in us BECAUSE of God. I do think the reason we can recognize hurt in others and feel bad about it is because God has ingrained some basic standards into us. So to answer your question, yes I do believe we need God to understand that. Do we need to acknowledge that we need God to understand that? No.

Maybe I shouldn't say there would need to be a Christian God. I'll say any God. Any higher power that sets rules and programs us.

I think most of you are missing my point entirely. I'msaying that I believe there is a God, and I believe that he has prgrammed us to have a basic sense of how to treat others. Am I saying you need to believe in God to have these the basic sense? No. Because I think that whether you believe in God or not it will be there.

I'm also saying that if there is no higher power then there is no reason to believe that there is right and wrong. There is no reason to believe there is good and bad. It's all action and reaction. Am I saying those of you who don't believe in God are animals? No. But USING YOUR REASONG I'd like you to tell me WHY our lifes and feelings would matter in a completely material universe. I can see absolutely no logic in it.
If you want to take it from a completely material point of view...we would cease to exist if we didn't if we let things go to chaos, we would destroy ourselves, so evolutionary we very social animals needed to create rules and regulations to follow, in order to maintain survival of the species....as society developed the rules become much more complex so they weren't so animalistic...it is quite simple, really, to bypass God that way.

One should not be moral because it's a ticket to heaven, one should be moral just for the sake of it really...it shouldn't require reasoning to make it so.

Dude you are also not going to get anywhere saying an atheist's reasoning for morality is not logical, but a supremely powerful floaty being in heaven reasoning is more logical....God can not be described as 'logical', he should be left to the realm of faith.

Saying all that I do believe in God, but I tend to think of the Old Testament as a load of crap to try to base any morality or what a sin is, on. Of course we also have the concept of original sin or that we are all a fallen people without the grace of God....why would God condemn his whole people for one man's sin? Or why would be be condemned in general for not believing in him or receiving his grace? Why bother creating us? Toys? Playthings? A fun experiment to mess around with? Maybe he was bored. But he certainly created us to follow a lot of his orders and laws....he did make them up though, they do kinda seem as arbitrary as any other human laws at times, yet we are meant to be so subservient to many of them, yet if they were implemented by human, a few of them we would certainly reject.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:13 AM   #69
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
And if you read the statement then it agrees, but the notion of a self aware intellect (mistake in earlier statement) is important. No outside force gives human life meaning, it is given meaning by the indiividual.

You keep bringing it back to survival, yet you haven't explained to me why survival is somehow "good".
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:16 AM   #70
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^survival is neither good or bad for the universe, it is good for that species.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:18 AM   #71
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Originally posted by shart1780
You keep bringing it back to survival, yet you haven't explained to me why survival is somehow "good".
You need it to be good, in the sense of morality, but the thing is that biology is amoral. If a species goes extinct then yes it is bad for that species, but at the same time it opens up a niche for a successor to fill that role.

If a species can't survive as well as another within the same niche or something pushes it to extinction then it will cease to be. If it ceases to be then it isn't around, if homo sapiens were outcompeted by some other homonid then this exchange wouldn't be taking place as we would never exist.

The fact that we are around and exchanging information is conditional on human social interaction and luck (and luck isn't God, just that events have to have proceeded in a certain way to produce certain results).
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:28 AM   #72
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Originally posted by LJT


If you want to take it from a completely material point of view...we would cease to exist if we didn't if we let things go to chaos, we would destroy ourselves, so evolutionary we very social animals needed to create rules and regulations to follow, in order to maintain survival of the species....as society developed the rules become much more complex so they weren't so animalistic...it is quite simple, really, to bypass God that way.

One should not be moral because it's a ticket to heaven, one should be moral just for the sake of it really...it shouldn't require reasoning to make it so.

Dude you are also not going to get anywhere saying an atheist's reasoning for morality is not logical, but a supremely powerful floaty being in heaven reasoning is more logical....God can not be described as 'logical', he should be left to the realm of faith.

Saying all that I do believe in God, but I tend to think of the Old Testament as a load of crap to try to base any morality or what a sin is, on. Of course we also have the concept of original sin or that we are all a fallen people without the grace of God....why would God condemn his whole people for one man's sin? Or why would be be condemned in general for not believing in him or receiving his grace? Why bother creating us? Toys? Playthings? A fun experiment to mess around with? Maybe he was bored. But he certainly created us to follow a lot of his orders and laws....he did make them up though, they do kinda seem as arbitrary as any other human laws at times, yet we are meant to be so subservient to many of them, yet if they were implemented by human, a few of them we would certainly reject.
I've been talking a lot about the whole survival thing. I still don't understand how, in a completely material universe our existence somehow matters.

And I'm not moral because God says I should be. I like seeing others happy regardless of God's teachings. I'm happy to know God is pleased with me when I can help others, though. Im not a robot.

I'm a religious person, so I would never claim that all of my views are based on logic. I also would never claim to be able to prove God's existance because that's impossible and would completely diminish the need for faith. I don't claim to base my beliefe in God on logic.

Those who don't believe in God, however, do need to be questioned logically because that's where they base their beliefes. If you can disprove an atheist scientifically he has no choice but to search for a new answer. Arguing with an atheist and arguing with a believer are two totally different things.

I can't say why God created us, really. I don't know if I'm supposed to know why. I'm certainly glad I don't live in the Old Testement times, because quite frankly, that would suck. God didn't seem like a very good God back then, and I have no idea why he acted like He did. I do believe His plans are the best, though. There are a lot of laws even in the New Testement I find myself questioning a lot, but I find that the more I follow them the happier I am. A lot of it is a huge mystery to me. I guess that's why it's hard to keep the faith sometimes. But when I manage to keep it I'm extremely satisfied and happy.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:31 AM   #73
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You need it to be good, in the sense of morality, but the thing is that biology is amoral. If a species goes extinct then yes it is bad for that species, but at the same time it opens up a niche for a successor to fill that role.

If a species can't survive as well as another within the same niche or something pushes it to extinction then it will cease to be. If it ceases to be then it isn't around, if homo sapiens were outcompeted by some other homonid then this exchange wouldn't be taking place as we would never exist.

The fact that we are around and exchanging information is conditional on human social interaction and luck (and luck isn't God, just that events have to have proceeded in a certain way to produce certain results).
I still don't think you get my main point. Why is it somehow bad if every species on the planet was wiped out?
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:36 AM   #74
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Firstly it basically happened at the end of the Permian and secondly you want me to justify mass extinction as bad without adequately defining what you mean.

It isn't bad in a moral sense because it is an event outside of human morality. It is bad for biodiversity but I simply cannot make it bad in reference to some outside actor or human concept of morality.
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Old 07-23-2007, 05:44 AM   #75
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Those who don't believe in God, however, do need to be questioned logically because that's where they base their beliefes. If you can disprove an atheist scientifically he has no choice but to search for a new answer
If theism isn't based on rational premises then it isn't going to do to well in such an argument, you have to present the evidence for God which you conceed doesn't exist because if it did then it would render faith meaningless. It is a terrific self-perpetuating lie that demands that people turn off their critical faculties in regards to this God or it's machinations; it's little wonder that it took humanity so long to break it's thrall to such a concept.
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