What is sin?

[redhotswami]

sin is a concept that people in positions of power use to increase their power over the relatively powerless, and the reason why sin works so well is that an ultimate, unquestionable authority is invoked -- God -- and an ultimate, unquestionable rule book is sourced -- the Bible -- and dissenters are easily dismissed.

but aren't some people in power frowned upon in the bible?

 

[Brunette89]

but aren't some people in power frowned upon in the bible?

yes, and Jesus was/is for the powerless, and the bible talks many times about how pride can be damaging.

 

[Irvine511]

but aren't some people in power frowned upon in the bible?

who tells us these things?

we're talking about sin, though, not the "Jesus message."

how better do you placate the unwashed masses with the whole, "meek shall inherit the earth" stuff? how else do people live with startling economic inequality in a country where the top 1% receives more income than the bottom 40%?

 

[CherokeeRose]

yes, and Jesus was/is for the powerless, and the bible talks many times about how pride can be damaging.

whoops, this was written from my old account and username. stupid internet browser

 

[redhotswami]

who tells us these things?

we're talking about sin, though, not the "Jesus message."

how better do you placate the unwashed masses with the whole, "meek shall inherit the earth" stuff? how else do people live with startling economic inequality in a country where the top 1% receives more income than the bottom 40%?

but...i don't think the concept of sin itself is meant to scare people into submission or anything.

if you consider "sin" to be retranslated to mean "disharmony" and "evil" to mean "unripe" then i think that speaks more to an awareness rather than a code to obey. the unripe means there's just more to learn about ourselves, about each other, about how we all fit together as gears in the big clock of life.

 

[Irvine511]

but...i don't think the concept of sin itself is meant to scare people into submission or anything.

if you consider "sin" to be retranslated to mean "disharmony" and "evil" to mean "unripe" then i think that speaks more to an awareness rather than a code to obey. the unripe means there's just more to learn about ourselves, about each other, about how we all fit together as gears in the big clock of life.

then why don't we use the words "disharmony" and "evil" and whatever else .. bad?

i think the word "sin" has a specific religious connotation in order to give more "weight" to whatever action we might be talking about, to make it appear worse than others, or at least more *shameful* than others. because God knows what you do even if others don't. and God doesn't like that. God, that great big shaming parent in the sky.

which is why sex lends itself so well to sin, and why so much of conservative christianity seems obsessed with sexual "sins" above all others.

i have no use for concepts of sin. i'm more worried if my actions are harmful to other human beings, or myself, than whether or not God would care. i'll deal with him later. it's other people i care about while i'm flesh and blood.

 

[yolland]

I do think it's somewhat dancing around the concept to not spell out as precisely as possible, depending on which doctrines one subscribes to, what the implied consequences are taken to be.

 

[Irvine511]

I do think it's somewhat dancing around the concept to not spell out as precisely as possible, depending on which doctrines one subscribes to, what the implied consequences are taken to be.

that's another interesting component.

a "sin" seems to have been wrong since time began, that people committed "sins" in Biblical time in nearly precisely the same manner in which they do today, that a "sin" is unteathered from historical context. it is always wrong, has always been wrong, will always be wrong, and there's no arguing with it. and, as such, the consequences aren't just faced here on earth, but they will reverberate throughout the endless life of your (assumed) immortal soul.

what a powerful concept.

 

[all_i_want]

there is no such thing as sin. its a bogeyman story to keep people on their toes, thats all.

while we are at it, there is no hell either. what kind of a sick, twisted god would first give you free will and then send you to hell cause you wont do what he wants but decide to sin, sin, sin? let me tell you: the kind that doesnt exist.

and thats the word.

 

[Bluer White]

'Sin' stocks have been great moneymakers for a long time. Phillip Morris, Budweiser/Diageo, McDonalds, Harrah's, Smith & Wesson? There doesn't seem to be an end to their returns.....does that say something about society?

 

[deep]

I do think it's somewhat dancing around the concept to not spell out as precisely as possible, depending on which doctrines one subscribes to.

the self professed religious people should list what

sins are?

and what the consequences are?

and how they would behave differently regarding these sins
if they no longer held their religious beliefs? (shart, said he would become a psychopath , me, I became a better person )



because I do participate in the "sin" concept

I do not see Murder as a sin

I see it as a crime

to be dealt with by living people in this world


I do not look for God
to mead out the ultimate justice (if that does happen, it is beyond what we can be involved with)

 

[butter7]

there is no such thing as sin. its a bogeyman story to keep people on their toes, thats all.

while we are at it, there is no hell either. what kind of a sick, twisted god would first give you free will and then send you to hell cause you wont do what he wants but decide to sin, sin, sin? let me tell you: the kind that doesnt exist.

and thats the word.

 

[nathan1977]

while we are at it, there is no hell either. what kind of a sick, twisted god would first give you free will and then send you to hell cause you wont do what he wants but decide to sin, sin, sin? let me tell you: the kind that doesnt exist.

and thats the word.

Your word, perhaps.

If you read the scriptures, you'll find that hell was not created for humanity but rather for fallen angels. However, as my pastor points out, while Hell was not created for us, God will not stop us from going there if we are bent on doing so.

Free will means that we can do what we want, and go where we want. Whether that's Heaven or Hell is up to us.

 

[anitram]

I absolutely reject the concept of hell.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I absolutely reject the concept of hell.

I've never quite been able to wrap my head around the idea that a so-called loving God would toss his children into the so-called burning fires of hell for disobeying. It's a completely insane idea to me. "God is love" and yet will burn his children for eternity?

 

[nathan1977]

I've never quite been able to wrap my head around the idea that a so-called loving God would toss his children into the so-called burning fires of hell for disobeying. It's a completely insane idea to me. "God is love" and yet will burn his children for eternity?

Hell was not created for humanity, but for the devil and his angels.

God does not choose that people go there. People choose to go there, and inherent to the notion of free will is that people choose what they want.

If you've ever had a friend who is mired in self-destructive patterns and refuses to come out, despite the best efforts of everyone to intervene, the notion of Hell suddenly makes a lot more sense.

 

[joyfulgirl]

If you've ever had a friend who is mired in self-destructive patterns and refuses to come out, despite the best efforts of everyone to intervene, the notion of Hell suddenly makes a lot more sense.

No it doesn't, not to me. And I've had lots of self-destructive friends. Sure, they may be "in hell" but I'm talking about the idea of the biblical hell as a literal fiery place that God apparently "allows" people to go to if they don't follow his direction. Equally absurd to me is the notion that someone can commit heinous crimes all their life and on their deathbed say "I'm sorry, please forgive me" and all is well.

It's a debate I'm not particularly interested in engaging in, having left the Christian church a long time ago never to return, but that's just my opinion.

 

[BVS]

I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.

 

[Irvine511]

Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.

this makes logical sense to me.

relams of fire and brimstone do not.

unless it's like this:

 

[Irvine511]

i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.

 

[diamond]

i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.

I wish this were accurate, it's not- only wishful thinking and very popular today.

dbs

 

[hardyharhar]

i also wonder, from a biological perspective, that if you think you are going to heaven, you are. as your brain shuts down and endorphins are released and the lack of oxygen creates all sorts of visions, you do see that tunnel of light as your body starts to die. your brain remembers that which is most important -- family members, whoever -- and there's a feeling of oneness and completeness due to all those endorphins, and your dying senses tell you, "this is it, here i am with God," and then you actually do die, and it's blackness, like it was before you were born, but at least the trip was nice, and you don't know any better.

Simple, logical and the most likely scenario, imo. Well put, Irvine.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I wish this were accurate, it's not- only wishful thinking and very popular today.

dbs

Right, so we take observations like oxygen deprivation in test pilots, investigate the causes of the experiences and come up with an explanation and this is wishful thinking?

Although I quite like the implicit thing with having an afterlife being worse than not having one for an infidel.

 

[maycocksean]

I absolutely reject the concept of hell.

Me too.

 

[maycocksean]

I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.

I think the critical concept in the whole idea of everlasting torment, whether it involves flames or simply the torment that comes with the absence of God, is the concept of the immortal soul--which is another doctrine that I (and my church) reject.

If the soul is indeed immortal, then hell becomes a necessity. The soul is not immortal, then hell is no longer a necessity either.

Ahhhhhh. . .my time is SO limited. I really want to engage fully in this discussion but I just can't. . .flight leaves at 6 A.M. tomorrow morning! Maybe, if I can get access to a computer on Thursday I can weigh in further.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Have a good trip.

 

[maycocksean]

Have a good trip.

Thanks. It's a little sad to see the summer end so quickly. I'll catch up with you guys in a bit.

 

[maycocksean]

what kind of a sick, twisted god would first give you free will and then send you to hell cause you wont do what he wants but decide to sin, sin, sin? let me tell you: the kind that doesnt exist.

and thats the word.

Yup. You hit the nail on the head.

 

[maycocksean]

how else do people live with startling economic inequality in a country where the top 1% receives more income than the bottom 40%?

It was actually this very issue that got me thinking about the definition of "sin" in the first place. I'll explain more about that later.

 

[U2democrat]

I think the concept of hell as a place was invented by man. The images of fire and what not. If there is an afterlife I believe some will be with God and some won't. Hell would be an absense of God, whereas Heaven would be an abdundunce of God.

I'm with you on this

I was actually talking with one of my coworkers today about how we're skeptical of people who try to scare other people into faith, and fire and brimstone is one of those tactics.

I also agree with Dieman's earlier statement on what sin is, it is a choice a person makes, IMO when they knowingly do something wrong when they also know they can/should do the right thing. Or something like that. I'm not really sure myself.