What is sin? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-22-2007, 05:24 PM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
To me the key to sin is that involves a choice. Do not kill, do not steal, do not take the Lord's name in vain - these are all choices to be made. If there is no choice to be made, and it is rather simply a core part of who you are (eg brown-eyed, brown haired, heterosexual), then it is not a sin. It is not who you are, it is the actions you take that make sin.
Another question that needs to be asked (I guess the the thread is about that, heh heh) is what is what choices constitute sin?
__________________

__________________
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:26 PM   #17
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


Why do you believe that? Just because I don't think humans inherently are pious and spiritually pure doesn't mean I look at everyone I see as a dirty worm.
It is only a question of how you are looking at them.

If you are looking up on people they are holy.

If you are looking down on them they are 'sinners' (dirty worms).


and then we can:
cut their heads off
feel patriotic as we watch "smart bombs" incinerate evil doers (and children)
drive planes into buildings
imprison and torture


it is very important that the concept of "sin" remains in tact
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:28 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


I mean that believing the Bible is the one true source for deciding what is and what's not sin is an unpoplar opinion.

And I also don't believe any of us are holy. That's the reason we need a relationship with Jesus, because we'll never measure up. It's all about grace, babies!
People have fought for being able to use their own minds without getting killed or at least punished.
Today, many people don't want a book to dictate what is right and what is wrong anymore.

I've thought about the term sin for a while now.
I haven't heard it in a long time, if ever, used in a serious way here in Germany. Sünde.
Sex is sin, but not really in the religious meaning. More as a synonym for taboo.

If someone does something criminal or immoral I wouldn't refer to it as a sin. I don't know anyone who would do, around here.

But that might rather be due to differences in language and how it gets contextualised there. I'm not sure.
It's new to me that the definition of sin is separation from God. I only knew it as the things Christian deem as inappropiate or wrong.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:36 PM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


It is only a question of how you are looking at them.

If you are looking up on people they are holy.

If you are looking down on them they are 'sinners' (dirty worms).


and then we can:
cut their heads off
feel patriotic as we watch "smart bombs" incinerate evil doers (and children)
drive planes into buildings
imprison and torture


it is very important that the concept of "sin" remains in tact
Well, I do look up to plenty of people, but I still wouldn't consider them holy because of that. To me being holy is more of a spiritual supernatural thing that only God has achieved. I think all humans are equally important, but I wouldn't consider any of us (inluding the most devout followers of Christ, i.e. the apostles) as holy.
__________________
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:39 PM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


People have fought for being able to use their own minds without getting killed or at least punished.
Today, many people don't want a book to dictate what is right and what is wrong anymore.

I've thought about the term sin for a while now.
I haven't heard it in a long time, if ever, used in a serious way here in Germany. Sünde.
Sex is sin, but not really in the religious meaning. More as a synonym for taboo.

If someone does something criminal or immoral I wouldn't refer to it as a sin. I don't know anyone who would do, around here.

But that might rather be due to differences in language and how it gets contextualised there. I'm not sure.
It's new to me that the definition of sin is separation from God. I only knew it as the things Christian deem as inappropiate or wrong.
Well, what exactly does immorality mean to you? I mean, when someone does something "bad" what are the consequences? Also, who decides what's right and wrong?
__________________
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:40 PM   #21
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


I have given a lot of thought to sin.

I reject the concept completely.
I think it is one of the most abused terms that is in existance. I think it should cease to be.
I believe it is a human construct to give the creators authority and control over anyone they can get to accept the concept.


Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

Why is it a poisonous idea to believe that us as human beings don't inherently deserving to enter God's presence? From my own experiences I can say I'm definitely not deserving of that, because I've done things I've been pretty disgusted with. I'm amazed God puts up with so much ugliness.


You don't think you are controlled by the concept of sin?


Look at the shame and self- disgust you express.


Sometimes I do things I thing are wrong, that injure other people.

I take responsibility for them and apologise. I really do a lot less of them since I no longer care or think about "God and the afterlife." My actions have immediate consequences and are not part of some much bigger picture with an imaginary 3rd person there.

My dealings are more honest and direct. I don't get any "golden pass".

I find I am much more considerate of people dealing with them in the here and now on terms that exist in real time.

Also, if I do make a mistake, I don't shame myself and add it to some big score card, and see how it all adds up.

I just make better choices and I find I am making a lot less offenses to others and myself.
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:41 PM   #22
The Male
 
LemonMelon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Hollywoo
Posts: 65,816
Local Time: 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


Well, I do look up to plenty of people, but I still wouldn't consider them holy because of that. To me being holy is more of a spiritual supernatural thing that only God has achieved. I think all humans are equally important, but I wouldn't consider any of us (inluding the most devout followers of Christ, i.e. the apostles) as holy.
Same here...

Mankind isn't, in and of himself, holy. Leave a human being to his own devices with no authority or law and see what happens.
__________________
LemonMelon is online now  
Old 07-22-2007, 05:52 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 06:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


Well, what exactly does immorality mean to you? I mean, when someone does something "bad" what are the consequences? Also, who decides what's right and wrong?
Greed, killing for pleasure or money or whatever, exploiting others and so on is immoral. Morality is not exclusive to religious people. I don't see it as a religious term. It's a highly philosophical term, though I'm not much into philosophy either.

Society defines what is right and what is wrong. But not solely. The law, developed over centuries and revisted over and over again provides for a basis we can use to define what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. Not one person, and never one book.

Well, what are the consequences for criminal behaviour. Either he gets fined, or goes to jail. Some behaviour is immoral yet not criminal. You then have to decide whether you are going to forgive that person or try to get out of his way. Just don't get criminal yourself, that would be stupid and immoral either.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:00 PM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep








You don't think you are controlled by the concept of sin?


Look at the shame and self- disgust you express.


Sometimes I do things I thing are wrong, that injure other people.

I take responsibility for them and apologise. I really do a lot less of them since I no longer care or think about "God and the afterlife." My actions have immediate consequences and are not part of some much bigger picture with an imaginary 3rd person there.

My dealings are more honest and direct. I don't get any "golden pass".

I find I am much more considerate of people dealing with them in the here and now on terms that exist in real time.

Also, if I do make a mistake, I don't shame myself and add it to some big score card, and see how it all adds up.

I just make better choices and I find I am making a lot less offenses to others and myself.
When did I say I'm disgusted with myself? I said I've done some disgusting things. However, because I'm able to repent for them the burden is taken off of me. I've also done things that hurt others and when I personally make it right with them I feel better because I care about others as well. It's not about earning marls on a score card.

See, this is the thing that kind of gets on my nerves, and I hear a lot. When I talk to people about these things they very often talk like you are. That I treat right and wrong as like positive and negative points that will go on my eternal life score card. That I have no TRUE emotional feelings towards others, and that how others feel around me really isn't that important. I love the company of others, whether they're Christians or not, and I care a lot about how people feel. I do have the capacity, you know. You're iplying that the only reason I give a crap for others' feelings is so I can get to Heaven. No. Do you think Jesus would respect that? Of course not. I treat others well because I like to see them happy. The fact that God smiles on that is GREAT, but it's not the reason I do it. I'm not a heartless bastard who uses people as tokens to get a free ride into Heaven.

I find it disturbing to see what you rally think of people like me. You make our exisistences sound hollow.
__________________
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:01 PM   #25
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 12:48 AM
For me, sin = the absence of good (thought, intent, action...).
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Greed, killing for pleasure or money or whatever, exploiting others and so on is immoral. Morality is not exclusive to religious people. I don't see it as a religious term. It's a highly philosophical term, though I'm not much into philosophy either.

Society defines what is right and what is wrong. But not solely. The law, developed over centuries and revisted over and over again provides for a basis we can use to define what is right or wrong, moral or immoral. Not one person, and never one book.

Well, what are the consequences for criminal behaviour. Either he gets fined, or goes to jail. Some behaviour is immoral yet not criminal. You then have to decide whether you are going to forgive that person or try to get out of his way. Just don't get criminal yourself, that would be stupid and immoral either.
I've never understood how this view could be logically defended.

If there is no God, and if we are truly sophisticated animals with no true soul, then what does right and wrong really matter at all? It wouldn't.

Let's say The human race evolved from soulless creatures and we're still soulless creatures that will just dissolve into the dust when we die like every other animal. How is there truly any wrong at all? If there is no universal right or wrong we are simply masses of flesh bumping into eachother on a tiny ball in space.

If we are fleshy masses with no real purpose (except maybe the percieve purpose society makes up for us), why is it wrong to kill? All it would be is the act of causing another mass of flesh to cease to live. Why is that "wrong"? Why is it not wrong for my cat to kill a mouse for sport?

And if morals are decided by society, then who's to say the ancient Mayan cultures who practiced savage human sacrifice were morally wrong? In there minds that was perfectly acceptable because society said so. Something can't be wrong in one part of the world and right in another.

If right and wrong are only dictated by society than I'd say that morals are a pretty stupid and petty thing.
__________________
shart1780 is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:15 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
U2isthebest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vision over visibility....
Posts: 12,332
Local Time: 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland

What, in your view, is the reason for being holy? Why aspire to it?
Personally, I believe I don't aspire to be holy. I try to make choices that line up with what I think God wants me to be. That has nothing to do with holiness. I'm called holy by God because I chose to accept what Jesus did for me not because of any action on my part.
__________________
U2isthebest is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:15 PM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep
A very good question,
maycocksean.

As someone that is doing missionary work I think you have to live with the concept.


I have given a lot of thought to sin.

I reject the concept completely.
I think it is one of the most abused terms that is in existance. I think it should cease to be.
I believe it is a human construct to give the creators authority and control over anyone they can get to accept the concept.
Thanks everyone for your responses so far. It's been really interesting. Deep, I wanted address your response in particular. . .

You reject the concept of sin. Fair enough. But could you define the concept you are rejecting? Maybe you feel already did so in your subsequent dialogue with shart1780 but I feel like I missed it. If you don't mind. . .
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:17 PM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780
Oh man I remember I made a thread like this around a year ago (I think it was called "Do you believe in sin?" or something) and the discussion went on a long, long time. I wrote a short essay on it a while back, but I doubt I'll be able to track it down. I might type up the main points later.

Oh snap. I do remember that thread. . .gosh, I hope it wasn't me that started it. I'll feel kind of foolish!
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 07-22-2007, 06:20 PM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington State
Posts: 3,861
Local Time: 05:48 AM
Why foolish?
__________________

__________________
shart1780 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com