What if (this view of)God is right? - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-12-2005, 11:01 PM   #61
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by unosdostres14


Yes but the answers you have found (that weren't taught to you). Since your knowledge is but a grain of sand on the beach, how can you be sure that your religious views are correct?
I'll only say it one more time, then I'm going to bed. I believe what I believe not because of "100% proof" or even because of my "knowledge". I cannot prove it to you, nor have tried, but it is as real and true to me as anything else. It has manifested itself spiritually and physically in my life, and that is one the reasons I believe. It is written on my heart.

That's the only way I know to describe it.

Good night, 12314. Pleasant dreams.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 11:01 PM   #62
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
But you're not going to get factual evidence! 80's belief is based partly on personal revelation (if I understand him correctly, and he can correct me if I'm wrong.)
Good night, finance
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 11:03 PM   #63
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by unosdostres14


Sleep is for the weak!


hehe....just kidding. We had a good conversation though. Don't forget to pray before you go to sleep.
Sometimes I am so tired I do forget. You can help me out by praying that I won't forget to pray.

Goodnight.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 11:04 PM   #64
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Good night, finance
Good night to you!
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 01:37 PM   #65
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Just to keep the great conversation going, here's the proof that people have asked for about Christ's diety. These are just a handful of the hundreds of detailed prophecies Jesus fulfilled, proving him to be "the Christ."

Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' birth and the New Testament fulfillment.

1. Born as a descendant of a woman, Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
2. Born of a virgin, Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25
3. Born as a descendant of David, Jeremiah 23:5 Luke 3:31
4. Born in Bethlehem, Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1-6
5. Herod kills the children, Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18

Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' death and the New Testament fulfillment:

1. Betrayed by a friend, Psalm 41:9 John 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver, Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:14-15
3. Forsaken by his disciples, Zechariah 13:7 Mark 14:27, 50
4. Accused by false witnesses, Psalm 35:11, 20-21 Matthew 26:59-61
5. Silent before accusers, Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-14
6. Wounded and bruised, Isaiah 53:4-6 1 Peter 2:21-25
7. Beaten and spat on, Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67-68
8. Mocked, Psalm 22:6-8 Matthew 27:27-31
9. Hands and feet pierced, Psalm 22:16 John 20:24-28
10. Crucified with thieves, Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
11. Prayed for his enemies, Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
12. People shake their heads, Psalm 22:7; 109:25 Matthew 27:39
13. Cloths gambled for, Psalm 22:18 John 19:23-24
14. Became very thirsty, Psalm 22:15 John 19:28
15. Gall and vinegar offered to him, Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
16. His forsaken cry, Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
17. Committed himself to God, Psalm 31:5 Luke 23:46
18. Bones not broken, Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
19. His side pierced, Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34, 37
20. Buried in rich man's tomb, Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60

Keep in mind, some of these prophecies were made 1,000 years before Jesus walked this earth. The ones concerning crucifixion were made more than 500 years before crucifixion was ever used as a form of capital punishment!
One scientist selected 48 prophecies and determined the probability of one man randomly fulfilling them to be 1 in 10 to the exponent of 157. So we're talking 1 followed by 157 zeros!
Your chances of winning a lottery jackpot are 1 in 108,000,000. Yet, Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies.
Also, most of these prophecies were fulfilled by someone else's doing. Take No. 10 or 18 for example. Christ had no choice on these matters, so it's not like he just did the right thing to fulfill these.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 01:44 PM   #66
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' death and the New Testament fulfillment:

1. Betrayed by a friend, Psalm 41:9 John 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver, Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:14-15
3. Forsaken by his disciples, Zechariah 13:7 Mark 14:27, 50
4. Accused by false witnesses, Psalm 35:11, 20-21 Matthew 26:59-61
5. Silent before accusers, Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-14
6. Wounded and bruised, Isaiah 53:4-6 1 Peter 2:21-25
7. Beaten and spat on, Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67-68
8. Mocked, Psalm 22:6-8 Matthew 27:27-31
9. Hands and feet pierced, Psalm 22:16 John 20:24-28
10. Crucified with thieves, Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
11. Prayed for his enemies, Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
12. People shake their heads, Psalm 22:7; 109:25 Matthew 27:39
13. Cloths gambled for, Psalm 22:18 John 19:23-24
14. Became very thirsty, Psalm 22:15 John 19:28
15. Gall and vinegar offered to him, Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
16. His forsaken cry, Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
17. Committed himself to God, Psalm 31:5 Luke 23:46
18. Bones not broken, Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
19. His side pierced, Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34, 37
20. Buried in rich man's tomb, Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60
I do find these quite amazing. I also find it amazing all the people that ignore or can't believe all of the biblical archeology associated with the old testament - but they'll give more weight to archeology without as much evidence.

Make-believe and myth - - - - - - - - - - -
__________________
MadelynIris is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 01:51 PM   #67
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Just to keep the great conversation going, here's the proof that people have asked for about Christ's diety. These are just a handful of the hundreds of detailed prophecies Jesus fulfilled, proving him to be "the Christ."

Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' birth and the New Testament fulfillment.

1. Born as a descendant of a woman, Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
2. Born of a virgin, Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25
3. Born as a descendant of David, Jeremiah 23:5 Luke 3:31
4. Born in Bethlehem, Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1-6
5. Herod kills the children, Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16-18

Old Testament prophecies about Jesus' death and the New Testament fulfillment:

1. Betrayed by a friend, Psalm 41:9 John 13:18-27
2. Sold for 30 pieces of silver, Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:14-15
3. Forsaken by his disciples, Zechariah 13:7 Mark 14:27, 50
4. Accused by false witnesses, Psalm 35:11, 20-21 Matthew 26:59-61
5. Silent before accusers, Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-14
6. Wounded and bruised, Isaiah 53:4-6 1 Peter 2:21-25
7. Beaten and spat on, Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67-68
8. Mocked, Psalm 22:6-8 Matthew 27:27-31
9. Hands and feet pierced, Psalm 22:16 John 20:24-28
10. Crucified with thieves, Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38
11. Prayed for his enemies, Isaiah 53:12 Luke 23:34
12. People shake their heads, Psalm 22:7; 109:25 Matthew 27:39
13. Cloths gambled for, Psalm 22:18 John 19:23-24
14. Became very thirsty, Psalm 22:15 John 19:28
15. Gall and vinegar offered to him, Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34
16. His forsaken cry, Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46
17. Committed himself to God, Psalm 31:5 Luke 23:46
18. Bones not broken, Psalm 34:20 John 19:32-36
19. His side pierced, Zechariah 12:10 John 19:34, 37
20. Buried in rich man's tomb, Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60

Keep in mind, some of these prophecies were made 1,000 years before Jesus walked this earth. The ones concerning crucifixion were made more than 500 years before crucifixion was ever used as a form of capital punishment!
One scientist selected 48 prophecies and determined the probability of one man randomly fulfilling them to be 1 in 10 to the exponent of 157. So we're talking 1 followed by 157 zeros!
Your chances of winning a lottery jackpot are 1 in 108,000,000. Yet, Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies.
Also, most of these prophecies were fulfilled by someone else's doing. Take No. 10 or 18 for example. Christ had no choice on these matters, so it's not like he just did the right thing to fulfill these.
i could've written a story about my neighbor, bob, in which he fulfilled all of those prophecies. doesn't mean it actually happened. doesn't make it true. and it certainly doesn't make him god.

there are multidudes of arguments over how authentic some of the translations are, and over how much of the old testament was altered to reflect the new testament narrative, etc. etc. etc.

your argument is only valid if one finds all of the scriptures to be inerrant.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 01:52 PM   #68
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Good point, there's that too. The Bible has proven to be an incredible tool in finding archeological findings of the time too. It's not just that findings have supported the Bible.

This gets back to a thought I have and that's is spiritual truth solid throughout time for all to hold on to, or is it "in fashion." These things, to me, are evidence of the former.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 02:17 PM   #69
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Se7en, you're right, you could've written a story about Bob fulfilling the prophecies, but there'd be no historical evidence outside of your story to prove it happened. Publications other than the Bible confirm much of Christ's life, especially the crucifixion, and the Bible itself.

For instance, at one point the Bible claims that the skies turned dark following Christ's death. Many thought this was simply a bit creative story-telling on the part of the Gospel writer. However, there is a Jewish publication dated from the same time that confirmed that the sky turned dark during the time of day when he died on the cross. (and no, it wasn't simply night time.)

You also said the argument is only valid if one finds all of scripture to be inerrant —*do you have proof that it's not?
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 02:27 PM   #70
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
the iron horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in a glass of CheerWine
Posts: 3,251
Local Time: 06:22 AM
I've corrected the original post
and added a lyrical thought.



"What is truth?"

~Pilate



What if that rebel from Nazareth was telling the truth?

What if God was one of us?

What if he came in love and died to set right all the wrong?

What if we killed him?


What if you never gave it a thought?


What if you believed?


press>>>play


If God had a name what would it be?
And would you call it to his face?
If you were faced with him
In all his glory
What would you ask if you had just one question?

And yeah, yeah, God is great
Yeah, yeah, God is good
Yeah, yeah, yeah-yeah-yeah

What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us
Just a stranger on the bus
Trying to make his way home

If God had a face what would it look like?
And would you want to see
If seeing meant that
you would have to believe
in things like heaven and in Jesus and the saints
and all the prophets

Trying to make his way home
Back up to heaven all alone
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome

Just trying to make his way home
Like a holy rolling stone
Back up to heaven all alone
Just trying to make his way home
Nobody calling on the phone
'cept for the Pope maybe in Rome

~as recorded by Joan Osborne
__________________
the iron horse is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 02:42 PM   #71
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Se7en, you're right, you could've written a story about Bob fulfilling the prophecies, but there'd be no historical evidence outside of your story to prove it happened. Publications other than the Bible confirm much of Christ's life, especially the crucifixion, and the Bible itself.


this is news to me. what historical evidence is there for christ's virgin birth, work as a carpenter, baptism at the river jordan, sermon on the mount, feeding 5,000, turning water into wine, being tried before pilate, and the return of jesus' body back to jewish hands, etc.? i've never seen or heard any. i would think that this would be BIG news. as far as i know one of the only other historical mention of a jew named yeshua came from josephus in his antiquity. although, most agree that it is a forgery. perhaps you can enlighten me.

Quote:
For instance, at one point the Bible claims that the skies turned dark following Christ's death. Many thought this was simply a bit creative story-telling on the part of the Gospel writer. However, there is a Jewish publication dated from the same time that confirmed that the sky turned dark during the time of day when he died on the cross. (and no, it wasn't simply night time.)
in what year was jesus crucified?

Quote:
You also said the argument is only valid if one finds all of scripture to be inerrant —*do you have proof that it's not?
you cannot prove a negative.
can you prove that unicorns don't exist?
burden of proof lies on those who claim the positive.

but if you trust science then you cannot believe in a worldwide flood. which to me, pulls authenticity into question. this is a very simplistic example.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 03:13 PM   #72
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
coemgen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Black and White Town
Posts: 3,962
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Se7en, if you care to check it out, Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" has examples of proof tied to Christ life and death found outside of the Bible. You're right —*it is big news. You'll find it very compelling.
Another thing I remember from the book is another text that confirms he performed miracles. There's a text that talked about him performing miracles, but it attributed this to sorcery. Sounds like a confirmation to me. (of course, the skeptic in you is probably leaning toward it actually being sorcery, right? )

If I remember right, I think the year he was crucified was about 28 A.D. or so. He lived to be 33 and was born between 4-6 B.C.

Burden of proof may lie on those who claim the positive, but what about the fact that nothing in the Bible has ever been proven historically inaccurate?

For space reasons, I'll just paste this link where you can find an explaination of the flood if you're at all interested.
http://www.christiananswers.net/crea...tastrophe.html

Oh, and no, I can't prove unicorns don't exist.
__________________
coemgen is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 04:03 PM   #73
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by unosdostres14


How do you know "Christ's deity"? How do you know "crucifixion resurrection"?How do you know "slavation". How do you know that humans are innately sinners? Isn't it possible that we just.....do bad things sometimes. How do you know (your version of) God picks us up when we are down. How can any of this be known?
We don't know these things intellectually. We believe them. For me, it's Kierkegaard's "leap of faith". It's *not* reason we're using. For me it's actually much more of a "heart" thing.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 06:24 PM   #74
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
[B]Se7en, if you care to check it out, Lee Strobel's "Case for Christ" has examples of proof tied to Christ life and death found outside of the Bible. You're right —*it is big news. You'll find it very compelling.
Case for Christ is a creative, well-written contribution to Christian apologetics. Moreover, Strobel is to be commended for summarizing the work of so many leading apologists for Evangelical Christianity in such a compact and easy-to-read format. Yet Strobel did not interview any critics of Evangelical apologetics. He sometimes refutes at great length objections not made by the critics (e.g., the claim that Jesus was mentally insane); more often, he doesn't address objections the critics do make (e.g., the unreliability of human memory, that non-Christian historians do not provide any independent confirmation for the deity of Jesus, etc.) Perhaps this will be a welcome feature to people who already believe Christianity but have no idea why they believe it. For those of us who are primarily interested in the truth, however, we want to hear both sides of the story.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/strobel.html


Quote:
Sounds like a confirmation to me. (of course, the skeptic in you is probably leaning toward it actually being sorcery, right? )
fantasy would be more accurate.

Quote:
If I remember right, I think the year he was crucified was about 28 A.D. or so. He lived to be 33 and was born between 4-6 B.C.
28 a.d. or so...4-6 b.c. or so...

Quote:
Burden of proof may lie on those who claim the positive, but what about the fact that nothing in the Bible has ever been proven historically inaccurate?
it's pretty tough to prove that there was never a talking snake in the garden of eden. but science does a good job of proving most of the ot narratives as myths.

Quote:
For space reasons, I'll just paste this link where you can find an explaination of the flood if you're at all interested.
http://www.christiananswers.net/crea...tastrophe.html
honestly, i found this to be junk science.
"Clearly, what the Bible is telling us is that God acted to alter the earth's topography."
god either intervened via a massive miracle or it never happened.

i watched a special on the flood this past summer and it did a very good job of debunking the notion of a worldwide flood scientifically while also tracing the lineage of the flood story back through the babylonian exile to the epic of gilgamesh.

a regional flood, exaggerated to create a narrative useful in displaying consequence of action. no more, no less.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 04-13-2005, 07:05 PM   #75
Refugee
 
MadelynIris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Craggy Island
Posts: 1,504
Local Time: 06:22 AM
ahh... what amazes me even more is all of the people see it so plainly, and have evidence to support faith... and are quite fanatical about it...

and an all of the people who are so dang sure there is no God, no Jesus, and ARE SO SURE -- that their level of confidence comes across quite arrogant...


AND THEN THERE IS THE ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

between these 3 camps, people have to learn to trust group 1 or 2 and that's a very hard thing for group 3 to do.

If you were God... which group is your group?
__________________

__________________
MadelynIris is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com