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Old 04-12-2005, 09:40 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Irvine511




what about health care? being able to pay for your child's operation?
It's not more important than God. And I don't even see the distinction. For some people, like me, God figures into everything. For instance, God is the one who gave mankind a conscience so that man might be moved to compassion for his fellow man.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:42 PM   #17
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One of my favorite sayings is that "No God is higher than the Truth". It is very true to me. Can God be higher or transcend the Truth. The Truth is greatest entity which is in existence. So that is what I worship. I worship all that is right in the universe. If someone scientifically proves that God does not exist or does exist, it would not matter to me because the Truth will always exist.
Is there truth, without God? I'm an absolutist, but if there is no God, truth flies right out the window, because then the world becomes a relativist madhouse, where everyone has their own truth, and all act upon their own version of the truth.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:42 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
If I've got the wrong God or the wrong faith...
I tend to think that a Deity that has infinite love and compassion wouldn't care.

In Hinduism, there are a myriad of gods and goddesses for everything. But the one who created everything, "Brahman" (I believe I spelled that correct), is considered above worship. There is no temple for him as a result.

I'd like to think that God is the same way. It's nice if we worship Him, but He also wouldn't care if we didn't.

Melon
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:45 PM   #19
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Is there truth, without God? I'm an absolutist, but if there is no God, truth flies right out the window, because then the world becomes a relativist madhouse, where everyone has their own truth, and all act upon their own version of the truth.
The world is already a "relativist madhouse," by your definition. None of us can agree on what religion to belong to. None of us can agree on what "god(s)" exist, let alone worship. None of us can agree on what morality we should prescribe to, outside of the basic, universal morality that secular humanism based itself on.

Reducing the world to an "absolute" black-and-white / good-and-evil category would be an unrealistic oversimplification, IMO.

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Old 04-12-2005, 09:47 PM   #20
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Originally posted by melon


I tend to think that a Deity that has infinite love and compassion wouldn't care.

In Hinduism, there are a myriad of gods and goddesses for everything. But the one who created everything, "Brahman" (I believe I spelled that correct), is considered above worship. There is no temple for him as a result.

I'd like to think that God is the same way. It's nice if we worship Him, but He also wouldn't care if we didn't.

Melon
I have at least some level of respect for any religion/faith as long as it is done in peace, no matter how many millions of gods and goddesses they may have. However, I'd be living my life a lot differently if I figured that God didn't care whether or not I acknowledged his existence. Just some spare change...
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:48 PM   #21
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Originally posted by melon

None of us can agree on what morality we should prescribe to, outside of the basic, universal morality that secular humanism based itself on.
Playing "God's advocate", what does this basic universal morality derive from? And doesn't your admission of a basic universal morality somewhat contradict the relativist madhouse argument?
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:50 PM   #22
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Originally posted by melon


I tend to think that a Deity that has infinite love and compassion wouldn't care.

In Hinduism, there are a myriad of gods and goddesses for everything. But the one who created everything, "Brahman" (I believe I spelled that correct), is considered above worship. There is no temple for him as a result.

I'd like to think that God is the same way. It's nice if we worship Him, but He also wouldn't care if we didn't.

Melon
I think that God is love and has a never ending supply of compassion; but he's also just and pure and holy and undefiled, which is exactly why no man with unforgiven sin can ever enter the presence of God. God didn't just willy-nilly decide that only those who have been reborn can enter the kingdom of heaven; it is an unbreakable spiritual law that God cannot be in the presence of sin. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible tells us that he is born again, and his sins are completely forgiven and cast away "as far as the east is from the west".

In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that a Christian is a new man.

"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away and all things are made new".

The new man can enter heaven, not because of any good deed he has done, but because it is Christ's blood that has washed his sins away. When God looks at a new man, he sees the man's prefect spirit, not his imperfect flesh. There is no sin attached to that perfect spirit.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:51 PM   #23
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Re: What if (this view of)God is right?

"What if that rebel from Nazareth was telling the truth?"

Then a lot of people have missed the point and have chosen judgmentalism over love.

"What if was God with us?"

I already think He's with us. I don't need to see Him.

"What if he came in love and died to set right all the wrong?"

Then He failed. The legalistic religion of the Pharisees merely resumed in the legalistic religion of Christianity.

"What if we killed him?"

Then that was His choice. All of Christianity is based around His death and resurrection. If He survived, he'd be as forgotten as the prophets before him.

"What if you never gave it a thought?"

Contrary to what people might think of me here, I think about it quite often.

"What if you believed?"

Who said I didn't? I do believe, however, that conventional religion has gotten it wrong, thus far, and is more an exultation of human traditions and biases than about Jesus.

Melon
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:53 PM   #24
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

It's not more important than God. And I don't even see the distinction. For some people, like me, God figures into everything. For instance, God is the one who gave mankind a conscience so that man might be moved to compassion for his fellow man.
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Is there truth, without God? I'm an absolutist, but if there is no God, truth flies right out the window, because then the world becomes a relativist madhouse, where everyone has their own truth, and all act upon their own version of the truth.

I couldn't disagree more. By making this point, you are assuming so much about God that can't be assumed. If there is no God, why does truth "fly out the window". Ahh yes...we will have this relativist madhouse. So in summary, if your view of religion isnt' correct, the world would be a MADHOUSE. And we don't live in a madhouse so therefore, using the substitution property, (high school algebra) your version of God exists.

Most of your posts are assumptions. Well....assumptions + basic high school algebra.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:53 PM   #25
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Originally posted by melon


The world is already a "relativist madhouse," by your definition. None of us can agree on what religion to belong to. None of us can agree on what "god(s)" exist, let alone worship. None of us can agree on what morality we should prescribe to, outside of the basic, universal morality that secular humanism based itself on.
But Melon, I'm not talking about what people "agree on". I'm talking about truth. The world is not a "relativist madhouse". It is a world of absolute truth that many people don't know and many others don't care to know.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I tend to think that a Deity that has infinite love and compassion wouldn't care.

In Hinduism, there are a myriad of gods and goddesses for everything. But the one who created everything, "Brahman" (I believe I spelled that correct), is considered above worship. There is no temple for him as a result.

I'd like to think that God is the same way. It's nice if we worship Him, but He also wouldn't care if we didn't.

Melon
Melon you are awesome. Hinduism is actually where I developed all my religious and philosophical philosophies. (Yes, religion and philosophy can be two different things). If Brahman is the Truth, is the Universal being that is God, it does not need to be worshipped.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:57 PM   #27
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


But Melon, I'm not talking about what people "agree on". I'm talking about truth. The world is not a "relativist madhouse". It is a world of absolute truth that many people don't know and many others don't care to know.
Just curious 80sU2isBest....do you follow your religion without question? Is there any doubt in your mind that perhaps there could be another way than what your parents taught you?
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:58 PM   #28
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I think that God is love and has a never ending supply of compassion; but he's also just and pure and holy and undefiled, which is exactly why no man with unforgiven sin can ever enter the presence of God. God didn't just willy-nilly decide that only those who have been reborn can enter the kingdom of heaven; it is an unbreakable spiritual law that God cannot be presence of sin. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible tells us that he is born again, and his sins are completely forgiven and cast away "as far as the east is from the west".

In fact, 2 Corinthians 5:17 tells us that a Christian is a new man.

"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away and all things are made new".

The new man can enter heaven, not because of any good deed he has done, but because it is Christ's blood that has washed his sins away. When God looks at a new man, he sees the man's prefect spirit, not his imperfect flesh. There is no sin attached to that perfect spirit.
The word "sin" originates from a Hebrew word literally meaning "imperfect." We are all imperfect and we will never be anything but.

I have a difficult time believing that God would create something that is inherently beneath Him. I believe that humanity creates castes of people with different levels of worth, and that humanity has a vested interest in keeping people feeling guilty. Religion, after all, has exploited it for centuries to maintain power and to generate money.

I believe that St. Paul is well-intentioned, but for the 4-5 billion people in the world who are not exposed to Christianity, I cannot believe that they were created merely to be condemned. After all, had fate been different, you could have been born in the Middle East and you'd be a Muslim. Or born in India, and you'd be a Hindu. And Christianity would be as foreign of a concept to you as it is for them. Like it or not, I believe that most religion is the result of one's environment; and while it is true that some parents raise their children to be "non-believers" and then convert later in life, the dominant religion for white America is "Christianity." We're exposed to it on a regular basis. It's all a matter of choosing the denomination.

Melon
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Old 04-12-2005, 10:00 PM   #29
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I couldn't disagree more. By making this point, you are assuming so much about God that can't be assumed. If there is no God, why does truth "fly out the window". Ahh yes...we will have this relativist madhouse. So in summary, if your view of religion isnt' correct, the world would be a MADHOUSE. And we don't live in a madhouse so therefore using the substitution property (high school algebra) we your version of God exists.

Most of your posts are assumptions.
No, it's not based on "assumptions" or my "views on religion". At this point, I am not talking specifically about Christianity. I am talking about the existence of God, the "higher power".

I'm not talking about "truth" with a lower case "t". Not the truth of "It is true that Bono's real name is Paul". I'm talking "truth" with a capital "T". The "TRUTH" behind such big questions as "why is it wrong to steal, to murder, to embezzle funds"? I'm talking about the truth behind moral and ethical values.

If no "higher power" exists, then where does TRUTH come from? Who set the standards? If there is no God, we are all our own gods, and therefore we are all capable of making our own "truths", and moral values,a nd nobody's is any better than anyone else's.
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Old 04-12-2005, 10:03 PM   #30
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Just curious 80sU2isBest....do you follow your religion without question? Is there any doubt in your mind that perhaps there could be another way than what your parents taught you?
C'mon 80sU2.....answer my questions
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