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Old 12-15-2006, 12:49 PM   #121
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Double post.
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:53 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


but Christ didn't say that.

you're taking an English translation of very, very old books written by True Believers years and years after his death.

how can you put so much literalist faith into a set of words of dubious veracity?

what is so threatening about a faith that sees the message of Jesus (or Muhammad) as a broad indicator of how we should treat others, of what the divine might be, and not as a literally "true" account that includes an elaborate theology that explains everything?
Irvine, this post seems to go back to the "Connected" thread about the exclusivity claims of various religions. The one (claims of exclusivity) would lead to the other (evangelism). While I understand that you don't see it that way, as yolland pointed out (it was said much better than my poor paraphrase), theological incompatibilities are tied to claims of exclusivity.

If something is true to me, who's to say it might not be true to someone else? And if those truths are connected to the "words of dubious veracity" as you put them, wouldn't that put more credit to what's on the page? (From my experience, translators of the Judeo-Christian Bible take their work incredibly seriously.)
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Old 12-15-2006, 12:59 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


but Christ didn't say that.

you're taking an English translation of very, very old books written by True Believers years and years after his death.

how can you put so much literalist faith into a set of words of dubious veracity?

what is so threatening about a faith that sees the message of Jesus (or Muhammad) as a broad indicator of how we should treat others, of what the divine might be, and not as a literally "true" account that includes an elaborate theology that explains everything?
How do you know he didn't say that?
Yes, the Gospels were written years and years after his death. However, the most trusted and reliable (no I'm not saying Fox news) texts relating to other big names in history were often written much, much later after that person's death than the Gospels were after Christ. The Gospels were in fact written within the same generation. If they were wrong, I think people would've spoken up about it — and not just people who were followers of Christ.

BTW, I can't believe I butchered the spelling of fate in a previous post. I don't know what came over me. I should be dragged out to the end of the drive way and severely beaten with a tack hammer.
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Old 12-15-2006, 01:18 PM   #124
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Also, what about this verse in Matthew. He recorded Christ being "the way, the truth and the life" as well.

Matthew 7: 21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This is a great verse to look at it because it shows what's important: a relationship with Christ. That's why he came. So God could have a relationship with us. That's why he died. Our own sin was getting in the way of that relationship, but now our sins can be forgiven through a relationship with Christ. It's not about creeds, religion, dogma, whatever. It's all about a relationship. That's what you'll find in the pages of the New Testament.
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Old 12-15-2006, 03:23 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


How do you know he didn't say that?


and how do you know he did?

FAITH.

not fact.

i'm pretty sure he didn't say those words. you wrote them in English. Christ didn't speak English.

and it's nice that your FAITH reinforces claims of exclusivity, which increases your own self-perception of specialness.

most people don't believe what you do. nor do they have any reason to.
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Old 12-15-2006, 03:35 PM   #126
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Languages can be translated, you know.
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Old 12-15-2006, 04:34 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Languages can be translated, you know.


and we know how much can, and is, lost in translation. especially when it's a 2nd hand account.

and the absence of inflection, and pitch, and context, and circumstance, and emphasis ...

remember playing Telephone as a child?
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:02 PM   #128
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Yes, but there's still very early copies of the gospels around. I saw parts of the oldest surviving copies of one of them in Ireland myself. Scholars have much to work with. Plus, the number of copies of the gospel dating to within a generation of Christ are staggering compared to the number of copies floating around for other historical documents and biographies. Something important must've happened.
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:37 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Yes, but there's still very early copies of the gospels around. I saw parts of the oldest surviving copies of one of them in Ireland myself. Scholars have much to work with. Plus, the number of copies of the gospel dating to within a generation of Christ are staggering compared to the number of copies floating around for other historical documents and biographies. Something important must've happened.

within a generation?

that's 30 years.

eyewitness accounts from 30 minutes ago aren't terribly reliable.

so why get hung up on language? why get hung up on word games? why not take the gist of it, and use that for inspiration to live a good, moral, compassionate life?
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Old 12-15-2006, 05:54 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and we know how much can, and is, lost in translation. especially when it's a 2nd hand account.

and the absence of inflection, and pitch, and context, and circumstance, and emphasis ...

remember playing Telephone as a child?
correct.

the kjv bible has had 7 major translations.

dbs
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Old 12-15-2006, 08:44 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Also, what about this verse in Matthew. He recorded Christ being "the way, the truth and the life" as well.

Matthew 7: 21-23
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I do not agree with you.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

This to me has a completely different meaning. Can't a Muslim, Hindu, Jew or Gentile, Atheist ect....do the will of the Father in heaven?

It seams to me that this verse demonstrates my very point, there are many who claim to be followers of Jesus running around "doing the work of Jesus" and they are EVILDOERS.

Only he who does the will of the FATHER.

Does not say Christian...
Does not say Born again....
Does not say Catholic...

Says those who do the will of the Father.....

And I think the will of the father is bigger than the limitations that we put on it.
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Old 12-16-2006, 02:59 AM   #132
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I think the will of the father starts with accepting Christ as your Lord, though. That's what it says, too. It's throughout the NT.

And again, if you sent your son to die so someone could spend eternity in heaven, would you allow them to take a different way?
I wouldn't. It would negate my son's sacrifice. Why did Jesus die then?
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Old 12-16-2006, 03:58 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




and we know how much can, and is, lost in translation. especially when it's a 2nd hand account.

and the absence of inflection, and pitch, and context, and circumstance, and emphasis ...

remember playing Telephone as a child?
You mean Chinese whispers as a child, an illustration of differences in language and terms right there.
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Old 12-16-2006, 08:55 AM   #134
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Acutually the first book of the new testament has been dated to be written at least 55 years after the death of Christ at best. However, it doesn't matter because the new testament is divinely inspired, inerrant and is the word of God because somebody with self proclaimed authority deems it to be so.
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Old 12-16-2006, 09:45 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
And again, if you sent your son to die so someone could spend eternity in heaven, would you allow them to take a different way?
I wouldn't. It would negate my son's sacrifice. Why did Jesus die then?
Jesus died like many other champions of the excluded, the marginalized, the downtrodden.

I can think of quite a few.

Why did they have to die?

This is about forgiveness...And the billions who do the will of the father by caring for the poor, feeding them, clothing them be they muslim, hindu, ect....because it was the RIGHT thing to do...

Why would God create them to damn them to hell? Just to stand before him and say I accept Christ? Sorry, the verse you quoted indeed points out that just accepting Christ and walking around town in his name is not enough.
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