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Old 12-11-2006, 03:28 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i, too, am very interested in NDEs, but the fact that they occur means that death was not fully achieved, though the information they provide is fascinating and an glimpse into the process of dying if not death itself.

Great point.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:48 PM   #32
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The condition for which death occurs fully is when the lack of oxygen to the brain leaves them in a permanent vegatative state - it it's a spectrum then it's bright lights to brain damage, one grounded entirely in the real world. Now this raises an interesting question for the believer, when are we dead? Is it when we are clinically dead or when we are brain dead, or is it both, a question of ethics, and to tie it back to the original point at what point are we to be judged or forgiven by God? If a person is brain dead have they met this deity - the push to "save" Terry Shiavo would suggest that many think no, which would mean that it wouldn't be until clinical death that it is supposed to occur, and in that case would a brain stem be capable of repenting for the sins the individual commited or would their conciousness be restored? If it was restored at what point? If there is conciousness restoration does it happen to everyone, is it arbitrary, is it determined?


Death happens, most of us live so far removed from it on a day to day basis - I wonder what effects that has on faith.
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Old 12-11-2006, 04:22 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Irvine511
the song being what happens when you die, all are explanations of the same thing, our connection to the infinite (i.e., Nirvana could also be understood as akin to an existence in heaven).
I think you're conflating "connection" to the infinite with a quest for immortality, which is not a universal characteristic of religion at all. Nirvana has nothing to do with an "existence" of any kind following death; on the contrary, attaining it is understood to mean that once you die, you die forever.
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Old 12-11-2006, 05:26 PM   #34
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Originally posted by yolland

I think you're conflating "connection" to the infinite with a quest for immortality, which is not a universal characteristic of religion at all. Nirvana has nothing to do with an "existence" of any kind following death; on the contrary, attaining it is understood to mean that once you die, you die forever.


perhaps my understanding of Buddhism and Nirvana are too heavily influenced by somewhat feel-good Western practices -- though i would argue that understanding our connection to the infinite is a means to achieve immortality, that nothing is born, or dies, but merely manifests under certain conditions, a metaphor that we are all waves in the ocean, and we become a wave when conditions are right, but we always remain ocean even when conditions have shifted and the wave itself has disappeared.

and i could word this better if i had my books in front of me.
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Old 12-11-2006, 07:24 PM   #35
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Originally posted by coemgen
and Buddhists don't even really believe in God.
Understanding Buddhism's non-belief in "gods" is best understood in the context of Hinduism. "Gods," in Hinduism, are generally seen as representations of a single entity, Brahman. However, Brahman itself isn't a god and transcends "existence." As such, Brahman isn't worshipped, as Brahman is above that.

As such, when Buddhism doesn't believe in "gods," it means that they don't bother to worship entities that, technically speaking, are merely an illusion. And since Brahman, the creator of everything in Hinduism, is above worship and "existence," there's no point in worrying about deities.

At least, that's roughly how I interpret Buddhism.

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How can they all lead to the same place?
If "God" has infinite love and compassion, He may perfectly well not insist that all of humanity worship Him.
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Old 12-11-2006, 10:09 PM   #36
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Buddhism is nothing like any other religion. Enlightenment is WITHIN oneself, not something supreme outside ones self.

I've been getting more and more into the ides of buddhism, t just seems so simple, yet so worthy.

but thats all i want to say on this - the rest of the ideas are moot to me
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:24 PM   #37
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Originally posted by Ormus


If "God" has infinite love and compassion, He may perfectly well not insist that all of humanity worship Him.
Yes, but if God is truly into justice (which goes hand in hand with love and compassion) he wouldn't come to Earth through Christ, live a perfect life, die a horrible death, and bring himself back to life — all to pay the penalty for our sins and allow us to have eternal life with him — and then allow us to chose other ways, or even ignore his work. I see that as a huge contradiction in character. What do you think?
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Old 12-12-2006, 01:17 PM   #38
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Yes, but if God is truly into justice (which goes hand in hand with love and compassion)


interesting point, but does it?

i think "justice" would involve the whole "eye-for-an-eye" thing, like, say, the death penalty; but the death penalty has nothing to do with love and compassion.

i see love and compassion as higher than justice, justice being very much of this world, and hopefully the need for it to be left in this world.
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:13 PM   #39
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Interesting that you equate the death penalty as (an extreme form of) justice, when I would describe it more as vengeance. Justice and vengeance seem to be two different concepts. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God in Jeremiah. But Christians are called to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God in Micah, so perhaps love and justice are not fundamental opposites -- particularly if justice is seen as defending the oppressed from injustice (James says that true religion is to look after the cause of the widow and the orphan).
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Old 12-12-2006, 02:46 PM   #40
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Originally posted by nathan1977
Interesting that you equate the death penalty as (an extreme form of) justice, when I would describe it more as vengeance. Justice and vengeance seem to be two different concepts. "Vengeance is mine, I will repay," says God in Jeremiah. But Christians are called to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God in Micah, so perhaps love and justice are not fundamental opposites -- particularly if justice is seen as defending the oppressed from injustice (James says that true religion is to look after the cause of the widow and the orphan).


actually, i agree, i was trying to throw out an earthly concept of justice -- eye for an eye, as a means of restoring equality when harm has been done.

perhaps an earthly notion of justice -- where i would argue that most of wouldn't agree that the death penalty as vengence, even though i do agree with you -- is opposed to love.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:00 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Irvine511




interesting point, but does it?

i think "justice" would involve the whole "eye-for-an-eye" thing, like, say, the death penalty; but the death penalty has nothing to do with love and compassion.

i see love and compassion as higher than justice, justice being very much of this world, and hopefully the need for it to be left in this world.
I see where you're going, but I don't think it goes far enough. First off, many Christians, like myself, don't believe in the death penalty. The eye-for-an-eye thing is OT stuff, which was under the law. We're in the age of grace.

The Bible still tells us that God is a just God. The justice I'm talking about is for our own crimes — our sin. Sin could be seen as crimes against God. And in deed, according to the Scriptures, we'll face judgement for our sins one day. That sounds harsh, doesn't it? The cool thing is that because God is just and fair, he knew we couldn't live a sinless life. He knew we couldn't make the payment in full — we were always in debt to him because he's holy and perfect. In the OT days a "spotless lamb" was slaughtered as sort of a payment for someone's sins. God, in his wisdom, justice, mercy and grace decided to be the ultimate "spotless lamb" and step down and die as the payment for our sins. Now we don't have to pay the price. He paid it for us. What we are invited to do instead is simply accept that he died for us, ask for forgiveness for our crimes against God and put our life in his hands. If this is done, Christ's righteousness is credited to our account, and "all debts are removed."
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:03 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i, too, am very interested in NDEs, but the fact that they occur means that death was not fully achieved, though the information they provide is fascinating and an glimpse into the process of dying if not death itself.

Here is an account by a guy who is bi sexual; it's pretty interesting and correllates with a lot of what my church teaches:

That we lived in Heaven with before deciding to come to earth
That we are all one family learning living and growing in the presence of God
That Christ was chosen before the world by where all mankind can be saved, and we accepted that plan before coming to earth, otherwise we couldn't have came here in a physical body.

Either this happened to this fellow or he is stealing LDS beliefs:



http://www.allaboutchristian.com/spi...ity/index.html

dbs
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:07 PM   #43
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Wow. I'll totally let you guys claim him, diamond.
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Old 12-12-2006, 04:15 PM   #44
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take him over a bible thumper annnnyday.

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Old 12-12-2006, 04:18 PM   #45
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