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Old 12-11-2006, 12:57 PM   #16
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The evolutionary spandrel of conciousness affords us a wonderful death, although I would have an interest in altered states from a strictly materialist viewpoint; of course we don't need to wait for death for such things.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:15 PM   #17
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Irvine, by saying faith is all that matters, you're not really solidifying the discussion though. I can have faith that God is a tomato and you can only get to heaven if you make a mean bottle of ketchup out of it. Does that make it true?

And all of these faiths can't be the same train (I see the train as the way to God or heaven). Jesus claimed he's the only way to God. Jews don't believe Jesus is the Christ. Islam just considers Jesus a prophet and Buddhists don't even really believe in God. How can they all lead to the same place?
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:22 PM   #18
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Originally posted by coemgen
Irvine, by saying faith is all that matters, you're not really solidifying the discussion though. I can have faith that God is a tomato and you can only get to heaven if you make a mean bottle of ketchup out of it. Does that make it true?

And all of these faiths can't be the same train (I see the train as the way to God or heaven). Jesus claimed he's the only way to God. Jews don't believe Jesus is the Christ. Islam just considers Jesus a prophet and Buddhists don't even really believe in God. How can they all lead to the same place?


what i am saying is that if you have faith, your brain will give you the perception that you have gone to heaven when you die, and then blankness. so it's all okay.

God, Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha -- all different cultural understandings of the same thing.

perhaps God speaks to us in our own language, or we use our own language to speak to ourselves about God.
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:25 PM   #19
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I can have faith that God is a tomato and you can only get to heaven if you make a mean bottle of ketchup out of it. Does that make it true?
As true as your own lord and saviour, how can one fallacy be better than another? Say what you will about a lack of belief at least it's consistent, we all end up dead.

If Jesus is the only path to God and God is the only God then does that make every unbeliever destined to hell? Whatever realms other faiths believe in can they exist, did Vikings go to Valhalla?
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Old 12-11-2006, 01:50 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Irvine511

God, Jesus, Mohammad, the Buddha -- all different cultural understandings of the same thing.
Buddhists -- as I mentioned in the other thread -- don't believe in god per se -- certainly not a Supreme Being in any relational sense. There is only enlightenment.

Muslims believe in a God of supreme and inconceivable holiness, who rules based on His own laws of justice, laws that humans (as unholy creatures) cannot comprehend.

Christians believe in a God of mercy and grace, Who trumps His laws of justice with a greater law of love.

Muslims do not accept Jesus as the Son of God (because humans are too unholy for God to consort with), don't accept His sacrifical death on a cross (they believe that God switched Jesus and Judas on a cross -- a holy God would not allow a noble prophet like Jesus to die), and thus have no concept of grace (unmerited favor).

Buddhists would not accept anyone who claims to be God in a Supreme sense, because everyone has the capacity to be "enlightened" (i.e., gods in their own minds). In this no one one should be set up above another. (Even the Buddha as we know him is just a teacher.)

Each of these God-concepts carries substantial differences from the other -- differences not just in the application but in the fundamental identity (or not) of God Himself.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:12 PM   #21
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Buddhists -- as I mentioned in the other thread -- don't believe in god per se -- certainly not a Supreme Being in any relational sense. There is only enlightenment.

Muslims believe in a God of supreme and inconceivable holiness, who rules based on His own laws of justice, laws that humans (as unholy creatures) cannot comprehend.

Christians believe in a God of mercy and grace, Who trumps His laws of justice with a greater law of love.

Muslims do not accept Jesus as the Son of God (because humans are too unholy for God to consort with), don't accept His sacrifical death on a cross (they believe that God switched Jesus and Judas on a cross -- a holy God would not allow a noble prophet like Jesus to die), and thus have no concept of grace (unmerited favor).

Buddhists would not accept anyone who claims to be God in a Supreme sense, because everyone has the capacity to be "enlightened" (i.e., gods in their own minds). In this no one one should be set up above another. (Even the Buddha as we know him is just a teacher.)

Each of these God-concepts carries substantial differences from the other -- differences not just in the application but in the fundamental identity (or not) of God Himself.


but as Bono might have said about Popmart, it's all just window dressing. people are here for the songs.

the song being what happens when you die, all are explanations of the same thing, our connection to the infinite (i.e., Nirvana could also be understood as akin to an existence in heaven).
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:18 PM   #22
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This is how I see it. God created everything. Correct well before humans started to create. He put everthing in place for us.

He created all humans. So even if the Native Americans had no notion of a Christian God, Muslim, Jewish, Budhhist they still believed in a higher power. And if God did not love then why create humans that did not believe in him in the first place.

Why would he ask for people to spread the word of the lord if people believe they were already created by a higher being. So God Loves all even if they don't believe in him/her/it.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:22 PM   #23
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to add something: it's not that "it's all the same" in that all religions are the same; rather, all religions are concered with, and provide access and answers to, the same thing.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:32 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511

the song being what happens when you die, all are explanations of the same thing, our connection to the infinite (i.e., Nirvana could also be understood as akin to an existence in heaven).
Albeit Nirvana as the ultimate expression of self-annihilation (since self is an illusion and Nirvana is the place of ultimate enlightenment), as opposed to self-discovery in our final, unveiled relationship with God and one another (the faces we had before the world was made).

Jesus' final prayer for His followers was for relationship with God ("I pray that they know you as I know you"); a very different goal than Nirvana, Paradise, or Heaven. (He spent much more time talking about relationship with the Father than He did about Heaven.)
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
to add something: it's not that "it's all the same" in that all religions are the same; rather, all religions are concered with, and provide access and answers to, the same thing.
Yes, but the answers are very different. Many contradict each other, and/or don't even acknowledge the others as being true.
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Old 12-11-2006, 02:58 PM   #26
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Yes, but the answers are very different. Many contradict each other, and/or don't even acknowledge the others as being true.


but it's still the same question. it's all about the same thing that we cannot ever know: what happens when we die.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:04 PM   #27
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Can we really never know? People die and are brought back to life more today than any other time in history, there are those who take these experiences to reinforce beliefs but they still provide information, the number of NDE cases will only increase in time.

To reduce all religions to the banality of something like death robs them of anything inherently special, now thats all well and good but it is not the catch cry of any belief system offering absolute revealed truth.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:12 PM   #28
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Can we really never know? People die and are brought back to life more today than any other time in history, there are those who take these experiences to reinforce beliefs but they still provide information, the number of NDE cases will only increase in time.

To reduce all religions to the banality of something like death robs them of anything inherently special, now thats all well and good but it is not the catch cry of any belief system offering absolute revealed truth.


i, too, am very interested in NDEs, but the fact that they occur means that death was not fully achieved, though the information they provide is fascinating and an glimpse into the process of dying if not death itself.

it's not that religion is reduced to death but that religion primarily addresses death (no, not all), for isn't this the great question? the undiscovered country?

love and faith and sex and fear / and all the things that keep us here
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:16 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Irvine511




but it's still the same question. it's all about the same thing that we cannot ever know: what happens when we die.
Well, that's why these faiths exist: to try to explain this stuff. Many claim to be a revelation from God so we can prepare for after death and so we know what happens after death. However, the faiths point to different things and contradict each other. Now's it's a matter of seperating truth from nontruths or not accepting any of it.
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:19 PM   #30
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Originally posted by Irvine511


love and faith and sex and fear / and all the things that keep us here
f you want to get Freudian you can reduce it all to eros and thanatos.
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