What if God forgives everyone? - Page 11 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-18-2006, 04:21 PM   #151
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean

"Preach the gospel always. If necessary use words."


and this, i have no problem with.

let me give you an example of my own sort of preaching.

i was on the 14th street bus last friday. and i was done up to the nines -- black pants, black shirt, funky jacket, had my "art school/Daniel Libeskind" glasses on, and my hair done up just so. i looked really very gay. and that was cool. hardly something new in DC.

i'm often the only white person on that bus, but at one stop, two really jock-ish white boys with white baseball hats got on the bus (what can i say, gentrification). they seemed pretty stoned, and had a tough time understanding that their bus ticket stubs they got earlier in the day were no longer good -- and they didn't have the $1.25 each to get new tickets. the bus was stopped. the driver refused to go anywhere. and i thought, "here's a chance to show two dudes who i would assume might harbor more than a bit of homophobia some consideration, and maybe they'll think that we're all like that."

so i gave them both bus fare. they were greatly appreciative, and so were the rest of the people on the bus.

now, i wasn't acting out of the goodness of my heart. not totally. i wanted to the bus to continue down 14th street as much as anybody else. and i also thought, hey, time to score some small points for "my community" -- sort of an "elevate the race" thing. and they appreciated it. (and hopefully they read me as gay, just as i read them as "possibly homophobic," which i realize is a stereotype, but whatever).

i would think that the best missionary work is somewhat along those lines -- you do good work because you feel that you are a representative of Christ (or whomever) and that compells you to do good works both because it is a good thing to do, and because you want to glorify him (i.e., elevate the race).

does that make sense?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-18-2006, 05:47 PM   #152
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:29 PM
[Q]hey, time to score some small points for "my community" -- sort of an "elevate the race" thing. and they appreciated it. (and hopefully they read me as gay, just as i read them as "possibly homophobic," which i realize is a stereotype, but whatever).[/Q]

But isn't this more in line with the will of the father?

This does not have to happen in the context of religious beliefs, but the general prinicpal of taking care of someone, no matter who they are.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-18-2006, 06:02 PM   #153
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
[Q]hey, time to score some small points for "my community" -- sort of an "elevate the race" thing. and they appreciated it. (and hopefully they read me as gay, just as i read them as "possibly homophobic," which i realize is a stereotype, but whatever).[/Q]

But isn't this more in line with the will of the father?

This does not have to happen in the context of religious beliefs, but the general prinicpal of taking care of someone, no matter who they are.


hmmm ... my analogy might not be a good one and could be better thought out, but i think i was trying to get at the idea of demonstrating the appeal of one's faith through good deeds.

why did i build that hut in Africa? because of Christ's love and because it's a good thing to do.

why did i give those guys bus fare? because it was the right thing to do, and i wanted to set a good example with the needs of the greater "community" in mind.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-18-2006, 08:44 PM   #154
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




hmmm ... my analogy might not be a good one and could be better thought out, but i think i was trying to get at the idea of demonstrating the appeal of one's faith through good deeds.

why did i build that hut in Africa? because of Christ's love and because it's a good thing to do.

why did i give those guys bus fare? because it was the right thing to do, and i wanted to set a good example with the needs of the greater "community" in mind.
I get your point...however.....

Wouldn't this be in alignment with God's will?

Isn't it a basic tenant of almost every major religion to treat those in need well?

Would that be something we can all agree on?
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 12-18-2006, 09:53 PM   #155
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:29 PM
yes, i can agree with that.

but i think that missionary work is more than just treating people in need well. it's about treating them well, and then trying to convert them.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-19-2006, 01:45 AM   #156
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
yes, i can agree with that.

but i think that missionary work is more than just treating people in need well. it's about treating them well, and then trying to convert them.
I actually thought your analogy was pretty good, and if by "converting" you meant to represent the "cause" well so that they might rethink their hostility or oppostion to it (in your case these guys might rethink their presumed homophobia) then yes I agree with the conclusions of your statement above. I think it would be disingenuous of me to say that I don't want to see people converted. I do. But, conversion is not my responsiblity. I can't make it happen, so I don't try. It's the trying that is the source of a lot of the harm that mission work can do. I mean, really, how can you MAKE or manipulate someone into loving Someone else--which is what any real "Christian conversion" is--the free choice to enter into a love relationship. It can't be motivated by fear or desire for rewards or emotional manipulation.

So if you mean by "treating them well and then trying to convert them" I would have to say I strongly oppose any such "missionary activity."
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 12-19-2006, 10:13 AM   #157
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,499
Local Time: 10:29 PM
^ i'm sure there's lots of grey area, and it comes down to the individuals involved in the process of their own projects.

i know there are several MK's (missionary kids) who lurk in FYM, and there are divergent opinions based upon different experiences with the intentions of various missionaries. some are people who feel called upon by God to help the poor, and others feel commanded by God to save the poor. i would imagine most have a mixture of both impulses as we're all complex individuals. i don't mean to denigrate missionaries (though i still feel very uncomfortable with the prosthelytizing in any form, it must be initiated by the convertee not the converter, if that makes sense), but then i don't want to put all missionaries up on a pedastal. there's a terrible history behind some missionary work, and it plays into what i think is the worst aspect of Christianity -- those Hindus are damned to hell if i don't save their souls.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 12-19-2006, 08:08 PM   #158
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[B there's a terrible history behind some missionary work, and it plays into what i think is the worst aspect of Christianity -- those Hindus are damned to hell if i don't save their souls. [/B]
Agreed. This is why I don't totally agree with fellow Christians who say that theological differences really don't matter. While they may not "matter" from an "individual salvation" point of view they can matter a whole lot, for example, in the way that we portray God to the world. And this idea "we've got to save those Hindus from hell" is directly related to the theology that God is going to burn them forever and that if they don't assent to a set of beliefs they will be "lost.' I would point out that the desperate desire to save people from harm is not "uncompassionate" or "horrible". . .in fact it's the opposite. But the problem is in what this belief says about the supposed "God of love" they worship. The followers end up being more compassionate than the God they serve.

Here's a somewhat whack analogy. Let's say that someone is on train tracks and someone else, who we'll call "the missionary" believes that a train is coming down the tracks and is going to run over the person in it's path. The "missionary" will beg, plead, threaten to get the person out of the path of the oncoming train. They may even get so desperate is to knock the person off the tracks. Now as a person watching this happen who knows this train track has not been used in a hundred years and in fact no train will ever use it, you'd think the "missionary" is a bit nuts and being overly zealous etc. But if the "missionary" sincerely believes that this person's life is in danger, you couldn't fault them for being unciompassionate. But you also would find their God who the missionary believes is driving the train and who wont' stop it, as completely reprehinsible and unworthy of any kind of worship. And you would be right. The problem you describe above is not so much with the motivation of the missionary but with what it says about the God they believe in.

Of course this is assuming "pure" motivations for missionaries. Historically and even presently there are all kinds of other far less laudable missionary motivations. Racism, greed, power, arrogance have all been a part of missionary work and there's no defense for that.
__________________

__________________
maycocksean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com