What hapened to the War against Communism? - U2 Feedback

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Old 05-14-2004, 05:38 PM   #1
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What hapened to the War against Communism?

GWB didn't forget the communists

New sanctions against cuba:
some of them:

* the limitation of family visits between the US and Cuba to one in every three years

* the restriction of cash remittances from expatriates to their relatives in Cuba - a key source of Cuban revenue worth about $1.2bn annually

* the use of US military aircraft to broadcast pro-democracy radio and TV television programmes into Cuba, circumventing Havana's jamming of signals.

And Fidel is on the road to protest against mr. bush


Wow sometimes it's hard to find out if it's news or april jokes
Quote:
In an address to the demonstrators, Mr Castro said the US president had no right to lecture anyone on such things as democracy or human rights.
(BBC News )
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:23 PM   #2
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It is mostly to pander to the virulently Republican Cuban-Americans in Florida.

Notice that we haven't done this to the equally communist Vietnam or, more importantly, China. But whomever said that there was such a thing as "consistency"?

Melon
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:35 PM   #3
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You wouldn't want to stereotype communists...
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Old 05-14-2004, 07:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
It is mostly to pander to the virulently Republican Cuban-Americans in Florida.

Notice that we haven't done this to the equally communist Vietnam or, more importantly, China. But whomever said that there was such a thing as "consistency"?

Melon
China and Vietnam are both opening their economies to the world but more importantly are continueing to transform their economies from the Command economy of the Soviet days where the government controlled everything to the global capitalism of today where the private ownership and entrepreneurialism rule.

If Castro would reform his economy as China has done then it would be a good idea to open trade. Unless this is done though, trade would simply be a revenue builder for Castro and not Cuba's people.
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Old 05-14-2004, 08:27 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
If Castro would reform his economy as China has done then it would be a good idea to open trade. Unless this is done though, trade would simply be a revenue builder for Castro and not Cuba's people.
But, by definition, an embargo is meant to strangle an economy. How can an economy be opened when the most powerful nation on the planet has been hell-bent on destroying it for over 40 years?

I don't think this really has anything to do with economics. It has more to do with politics.

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Old 05-15-2004, 03:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


But, by definition, an embargo is meant to strangle an economy. How can an economy be opened when the most powerful nation on the planet has been hell-bent on destroying it for over 40 years?

I don't think this really has anything to do with economics. It has more to do with politics.

Melon
Well the two, economics and politics are linked. If Castro would reform the Cuban Economy along the lines that China is currently doing, we would be willing to trade with Cuba because Castro would not benefit in the way he would with the current system. Eventually, such reforms would empower the Cuban people and lead to political change within the country.
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Old 05-15-2004, 04:57 PM   #7
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China is "reforming" their economy by incorporating a lot of North American people and capital... especially with regards to architecture and public infrastructure. Cuba doesn't really have that option. If sanctions continue to suffocate them politically and economically, their market will remain stagnant.

The stubborness is present on both sides of the Gulf... and why not? Either side would perceptively lose face if they gave concessions to the other. Each could benefit from swallowing pride, and possibly a civil coup to depose their respective regulatory dictatorship.

I thought that was drastic too. Last time I listen to Lou Dobbs.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pinball Wizard
China is "reforming" their economy by incorporating a lot of North American people and capital... especially with regards to architecture and public infrastructure. Cuba doesn't really have that option. If sanctions continue to suffocate them politically and economically, their market will remain stagnant.

The stubborness is present on both sides of the Gulf... and why not? Either side would perceptively lose face if they gave concessions to the other. Each could benefit from swallowing pride, and possibly a civil coup to depose their respective regulatory dictatorship.

I thought that was drastic too. Last time I listen to Lou Dobbs.
Cuba does not have the option because Castro is not interested in a Market oriented economy which he would not be able to control the way he does the current Cuban economy.

Some of the largest reforms China is making is getting the "State" out of the economy by privatizing State owned business's. There are all kinds of things Cuba could do to reform with or without an embargo in place but Castro has not done this.

The United States is heavily involved with china in regards to business because this is helping build a massive private sector which simply does not exist in Cuba because of Castro.
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Old 05-15-2004, 05:33 PM   #9
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STING2: The cuban economy was reformed a lot over the last 10 years!
Not because of insight or sanctions but simply because there is no support from Moscow like it used to be.
But the US didn't change it's embargo and one reason for it could be the Bacardi-family
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Old 05-15-2004, 07:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
STING2: The cuban economy was reformed a lot over the last 10 years!
Not because of insight or sanctions but simply because there is no support from Moscow like it used to be.
But the US didn't change it's embargo and one reason for it could be the Bacardi-family
What reforms were these specifically? How many people in Cuba own their own business's? What, if any, progress has Cuba made toward a "market" oriented economy as opposed to a "state" run command economy?
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Old 05-15-2004, 09:11 PM   #11
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I think at this point they might have to accept that Castro is here to stay. I mean, just a thought.

I mean, we might not like communism but this isn't the Cold War. Cuba is no threat to America. Think about it.

Nor are the other vaguely leftish governments that occasionally show their faces in South America.
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Old 05-16-2004, 02:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

What reforms were these specifically? How many people in Cuba own their own business's? What, if any, progress has Cuba made toward a "market" oriented economy as opposed to a "state" run command economy?
I'll try to write down what i've read about the Cuban Economy.

After the USSR fell appart Castro had to solve a serious problem, something that no other leader of any country survived:

the GDP of Cuba droped more than 50%! Because the biggest trading partner who sent lots of monetary help too simply didn't exist anymore.

How did Castro handle that?
First big subventions so that all government-epmloyees (95% not 100%! of all employes) didn't loose their jobs.

rationing of food. But because it was relatively just (no elite who could live like before) there were not enough people who wanted to start a revolution.
The health system, the education system and the pensions weren't touched and still were free of charge for any cuban citizen!
(note their education- and health- standards are the best of whole south-america)

now to the pro-free-marktet changes:

1993 US-Dollar became a legal 2nd curency.

1994 The monopople of domestic commerce was canceled
And the Farmers markets could reopen.
1995 the government helped entrepreneurs now private economy wasn't only legal but even supported by the government in some areas (afik mostly touristic, clothes and food)

It would be interesting to see how successful Fidels comunistic system could work if they could trade with the biggest market, their neigbour USA.

Klaus
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Old 05-16-2004, 03:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


I'll try to write down what i've read about the Cuban Economy.

After the USSR fell appart Castro had to solve a serious problem, something that no other leader of any country survived:

the GDP of Cuba droped more than 50%! Because the biggest trading partner who sent lots of monetary help too simply didn't exist anymore.

How did Castro handle that?
First big subventions so that all government-epmloyees (95% not 100%! of all employes) didn't loose their jobs.

rationing of food. But because it was relatively just (no elite who could live like before) there were not enough people who wanted to start a revolution.
The health system, the education system and the pensions weren't touched and still were free of charge for any cuban citizen!
(note their education- and health- standards are the best of whole south-america)

now to the pro-free-marktet changes:

1993 US-Dollar became a legal 2nd curency.

1994 The monopople of domestic commerce was canceled
And the Farmers markets could reopen.
1995 the government helped entrepreneurs now private economy wasn't only legal but even supported by the government in some areas (afik mostly touristic, clothes and food)

It would be interesting to see how successful Fidels comunistic system could work if they could trade with the biggest market, their neigbour USA.

Klaus
#1 If its a Communist system, there cannot be any private ownership and there is no entrepreneuralism. The State owns everything and produces everything, which of course means in this case that Castro owns everything and produces everything. The USA does not want to be doing business with Castro.

If Castro has really reformed, to what degree of the economy is now privately owned and independent of any State control? What percent of the profits these companies make go to the State(basically Castro) in the form of taxes?

How many privately owned companies in Cuba can you name?


Although I do not have the facts on this one, I tend to think that any reforms that Castro has made in regards to turning his economy into a Capitalist one as China is doing, or more for show and are not real changes.

If Castro were indeed to reform the countries economy and make it into a western capitalist one, then I think the embargo should be lifted because trade would then clearly help the people and not be a revenue generator simply for Castro and not the people.
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Old 05-16-2004, 04:51 PM   #14
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STING2: in 1995 Cuba owned 95% of the business - so maybe Castro isn't a real communist anymore? (sorry i don't have any newer numbers)

I can't name ANY Cuban company. I have never bin there and i have no big interest in this country

Imho castro simply wants to survive, he allied with the USSR because it was the only chance to stand against the pressure of the US.
I think he's still a "survivor-type" and therefore he changes his economy.
He is a dictator but not as bad as the dictator before him (who was supportet by the US) and he's a "nice guy compared to the cruelest dictators like Stalin, Polpot, Ceausescu , Hitler etc.

Klaus

ps I don't like Cuba for some mayor things:
It's no democracy and they oppress the opposition and the media is censored

---- edited ----

and you're right sting, lifting the embargo would help those people who started their own business and it would be bad for castro.
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Old 05-16-2004, 05:04 PM   #15
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There are privately owned ventures in Cuba, and plenty of them in the tourist sector. Who do you think exactly runs all the resorts in Varadero, Holguin, Cayo Coco, Manzanillo, Havana, etc? It's mainly European companies, mostly out of Spain.

Cuba is a really beautiful place. There are some stunning valleys and lush greenery, and of course there are amazing beaches as well. The people are among the friendliest I've ever met and the West, IMO, owes them a huge apology because we are partly responsible for keeping them living in squalor. We can make all the excuses we want, but I think it's unacceptable to have a 3rd world nation 90 miles off Key West, and one that we played a large part in attempting to destabilize. This is pretty much some sort of American policy since Canada and other countries have no qualms with Cuba and we travel there freely. Were it not for the Cuban American lobby and their money, nobody in America would care about continuing these sanctions either. There are plenty of other countries that have no sanctions or much weaker ones for worse things - this is all politics and pretty shameful too.
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