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Old 05-16-2004, 06:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
STING2: in 1995 Cuba owned 95% of the business - so maybe Castro isn't a real communist anymore? (sorry i don't have any newer numbers)

I can't name ANY Cuban company. I have never bin there and i have no big interest in this country

Imho castro simply wants to survive, he allied with the USSR because it was the only chance to stand against the pressure of the US.
I think he's still a "survivor-type" and therefore he changes his economy.
He is a dictator but not as bad as the dictator before him (who was supportet by the US) and he's a "nice guy compared to the cruelest dictators like Stalin, Polpot, Ceausescu , Hitler etc.

Klaus

ps I don't like Cuba for some mayor things:
It's no democracy and they oppress the opposition and the media is censored

---- edited ----

and you're right sting, lifting the embargo would help those people who started their own business and it would be bad for castro.
When you say in 1995 that Cuba owned 95% of the business, are you talking about the "State" or are you talking about the Cuban people? Either way, what is your source for these statistics?

Castro has had a lot of innocent Cubans murdered simply for their political beliefs as well as supporting Communist revolution through out Central America and Africa with aid and troops. He helped the Soviets deploy nuclear weapons on Cuban soil targeted against United States cities as well. So, no, his impact and cruelty far exceed what the prior leaders of Cuba did to their own people and other people around the world.
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:08 PM   #17
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Originally posted by anitram
There are privately owned ventures in Cuba, and plenty of them in the tourist sector. Who do you think exactly runs all the resorts in Varadero, Holguin, Cayo Coco, Manzanillo, Havana, etc? It's mainly European companies, mostly out of Spain.

Cuba is a really beautiful place. There are some stunning valleys and lush greenery, and of course there are amazing beaches as well. The people are among the friendliest I've ever met and the West, IMO, owes them a huge apology because we are partly responsible for keeping them living in squalor. We can make all the excuses we want, but I think it's unacceptable to have a 3rd world nation 90 miles off Key West, and one that we played a large part in attempting to destabilize. This is pretty much some sort of American policy since Canada and other countries have no qualms with Cuba and we travel there freely. Were it not for the Cuban American lobby and their money, nobody in America would care about continuing these sanctions either. There are plenty of other countries that have no sanctions or much weaker ones for worse things - this is all politics and pretty shameful too.
Can you name a privately owned Cuban Company?

The Cuban American lobby alone is not strong enough to control US policy on Cuba. Other Americans are convinced that it would be wrong to support trade with a Cuban government that continued to control the economy and as a result take all the revenue that would be generated from trade with the USA, leaving private Cuban citizens with nothing except that which the government decided to give them.
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:13 PM   #18
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I might suggest you read up on your pre-revolutionist Cuba. Otherwise there might be a request for your references...



Attempting to affirm Castro as the scapegoat for this entire situation seems to be your point, although the foundation for you claim is precarious at best. I think most people in this thread have contemplated the opinion you've brought forth, but it seems by consensus that there is more to the issue than just one man's blind tyranny.

At least it was a consistent attempt.

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Old 05-16-2004, 06:16 PM   #19
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I think castro probably uses the US embargo to his advantage.

I read somewhere that one of his biggest fears is that it will be lifted someday

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Old 05-16-2004, 06:20 PM   #20
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Coming from a simpletons perspective who doesn't really know much about the sitatuion in Cuba (and I have a history degree )

it seems to me that the US policy towards cuba over the past 40 years hasn't done anything to get the guy out of power OR help the people of Cuba lead better lives...so why not look for better alternatives?
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:28 PM   #21
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Originally posted by GARY#2
I might suggest you read up on your pre-revolutionist Cuba. Otherwise there might be a request for your references...



Attempting to affirm Castro as the scapegoat for this entire situation seems to be your point, although the foundation for you claim is precarious at best. I think most people in this thread have contemplated the opinion you've brought forth, but it seems by consensus that there is more to the issue than just one man's blind tyranny.

At least it was a consistent attempt.

How heavily engaged was pre-revolutionary Cuba in Africa and Central America in supporting the violent rise to power of Communist governments?

This is something Castro's Cuba did throughout the Cold War, and I have the US Department of Defense Sources to back that up.

How long has Castro been dictator? How long was any single leader before him a ruler of Cuba? Even if there were Pre-revolutionary Cuban leaders that were more brutal, I don't think any of them have been in power as long as Castro has. Castro may not have the Cuban record for brutality in a single year, but take a look at everything he has done in total over the past 40 years both in Cuba and in Africa and Central America and I think you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Most people at FYM approach politics from a liberal point of view, so I would be surprised if most people in this thread did not have a lot of disagreements with my views.


Castro is the leader in a Communist dictatorship, correct? If it was Castro's Cousin, or someone else, as long as you have Communist form of government where the State controls the economy and the government, opening trade to any such regime only helps those that run it. The people continue to be slaves to the Communist system.

If Castro has seriously abandon Communism, at least from the economic perspective, then the USA should at least consider lifting the embargo.
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Old 05-16-2004, 06:38 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Basstrap
Coming from a simpletons perspective who doesn't really know much about the sitatuion in Cuba (and I have a history degree )

it seems to me that the US policy towards cuba over the past 40 years hasn't done anything to get the guy out of power OR help the people of Cuba lead better lives...so why not look for better alternatives?
Thats a good point. I don't think simply lifting the embargo and trading with a Communist run state economy is going to improve or change the situation. Since everyone works for the State, everyone essentially works for Castro.

I understand though that perhaps things have changed or have liberalized in Cuba in regards to the economy and whether it is still a Command State run economy like the classic Soviet model. But I'd like to find some more detailed evidence on this before I start to consider it seriously.
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Old 05-17-2004, 02:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2


When you say in 1995 that Cuba owned 95% of the business, are you talking about the "State" or are you talking about the Cuban people? Either way, what is your source for these statistics?
I remembered these numbers from a documentary i saw about Bacardi. It was verry interesting how much influense this family had (and has) on US Cuba politics.

Some numbers i got from the "Auswärtiges Amt"-Germany (Foreign minister).
Some Numbers you can get from the Encyclopaedia of your choice.

There you can find out for example that directly after Castros Communist revolution more people owned private land than before!
Yes, less land was owned privatly - but more people owned it. Why?
Castro mainly took the land of verry few rich companies (for example bacardi) that's why the majority of the people liked that revolition because they had more than before.

And afik in cuba there was never 100% economy driven by the government therefore never 100% communism, which isn't a big surprise since in our countries economy is never 0% government.

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Castro has had a lot of innocent Cubans murdered simply for their political beliefs as well as supporting Communist revolution through out Central America and Africa with aid and troops. He helped the Soviets deploy nuclear weapons on Cuban soil targeted against United States cities as well. So, no, his impact and cruelty far exceed what the prior leaders of Cuba did to their own people and other people around the world.
Right, that's what i mentioned i don't like that he supresses the oposition, but i don't have any numbers how many people he murdered for political beliefs. I would be thankful if you can give me some statistics.
Afik Cuba didn't have concentration camps like the USSR or China.

And yes, he supported the Communist revolution but since we try to "export" our political system too i don't think we should be surprised that he tried the same.

And to the cruelty, i don't think it's the sheer number of people who are killed/supressed it also has something to do how much time they had.
The previous (US supported) dictator of cuba simply didn't have the chance to kill more people because he was removed with a military revolution that dosn't make HIM less cruel.

No matter what you think of him, castros health and education system was (and is still) much better than anything else in south america 96.2% can read and write, which is excelent for such a poor country.

Anyway, human rights violations in cuba are ineceptable http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/july2002/Cuba
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Old 05-17-2004, 04:18 AM   #24
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Originally posted by STING2
How heavily engaged was pre-revolutionary Cuba in Africa and Central America in supporting the violent rise to power of Communist governments?
The United States itself has a less than admirable record in Africa and Central America. You might like to look at Angola's history as just one example: The US, initially in alliance with South Africa, supported the UNITA contras when they attacked from South Africa in 1975. Angola was left in a civil war which lasted for more than 26 years and in which over half a million people died and one third of the population wereforced to flee their homes. The US continued to support UNITA throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

Quote:
This is something Castro's Cuba did throughout the Cold War, and I have the US Department of Defense Sources to back that up.
And the United States supported violent anti-communist forces throughout the Cold War. Remember the illegal sales of weapons to Iran, the profits of which were secretly used to fund the contras in Nicaragua? The CIA supported the coup which deposed Salvador Allende in Chile and brought to power General Pinochet, whose human rights abuses are well documented. In 1954 the US supported an invasion which overthrew the Arbenz government in Guatemala. If you intend to criticise Castro's government for supporting communist forces in South America, you must also criticise the US for supporting some extremely dangerous and violent groups for no other reason than they professed to be opposed to communism.
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Old 05-17-2004, 09:59 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Mildred


The United States itself has a less than admirable record in Africa and Central America. You might like to look at Angola's history as just one example: The US, initially in alliance with South Africa, supported the UNITA contras when they attacked from South Africa in 1975. Angola was left in a civil war which lasted for more than 26 years and in which over half a million people died and one third of the population wereforced to flee their homes. The US continued to support UNITA throughout the 1980s and 1990s.



And the United States supported violent anti-communist forces throughout the Cold War. Remember the illegal sales of weapons to Iran, the profits of which were secretly used to fund the contras in Nicaragua? The CIA supported the coup which deposed Salvador Allende in Chile and brought to power General Pinochet, whose human rights abuses are well documented. In 1954 the US supported an invasion which overthrew the Arbenz government in Guatemala. If you intend to criticise Castro's government for supporting communist forces in South America, you must also criticise the US for supporting some extremely dangerous and violent groups for no other reason than they professed to be opposed to communism.
The United States was locked in a global struggle to prevent the global domination by the Soviet Union which would have destroyed democracy completely.

Were their times when the United States supported brutal dictators in order to combat or defeat Communist forces, of course. Under the circumstances, many of these actions were clearly justified.

None of the dicators that were supported were even close to being as worse as Joseph Stalin.

There is not another dictator in history that the United States sent more aid to than Joseph Stalin during World War II.

Sending the aid to Joseph Stalin was justified though because it was necessary to help ensure the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II. The Lend-lease Aid plan to the Soviet Union was the largest aid plan for any single country in history. Without it, the Eastern front would have collapsed and Germany would have won the war, leading to human rights abuses few here could ever dream of.
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Old 05-17-2004, 10:17 PM   #26
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Klaus,

I need you to print out the whole address for me because simply clicking on the name you have there leads to websites that have nothing to do with what were talking about. I don't know why this happens, but in interference lately, I have to type the address in myself if I want to get to the link.

I am doubtful that Castro instituted a free market economy when he came to power. I'm also doubt what Castro considered to be the private ownership of land meant the samething as it does in the USA and Western Europe.

"And yes, he supported the Communist revolution but since we try to "export" our political system too i don't think we should be surprised that he tried the same."

There is a huge difference between supporting forces that combat the advance of a global Communist network who's goal was to wipe democracy from the face of the earth, and actually being near the front of a communist movement to destroy democracy worldwide with the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union along with Cuba and other Communist nations tried to wipe democracy from the earth. The USA, NATO, and other allies prevented the Soviet Union and Cuba from doing this, just as they prevented Nazi German and Japan from extending their totalitarian governments across the entire planet.
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Old 05-18-2004, 06:36 AM   #27
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STING2: I'm unsure which link you mean.

Ok so i start with the first post:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3714203.stm


The link for the human rights violations in cuba
http://web.amnesty.org/web/wire.nsf/july2002/Cuba

The ministry for foreign affairs - germany:
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/www/d...=12&land_id=89
(here with babelfish)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...%3D89&lp=de_en

Which supports you with some data about cubas economics

Both links are not directly connected with the topic but i think they give helpful background informations about their economy and their treatment of people who don't support their government.
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