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Old 07-24-2003, 12:22 AM   #16
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For pax: Can you further explain your thoughts? I'm just wondering how you reconcile this with the traditional tenets of Christianity...
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Old 07-24-2003, 12:34 AM   #17
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It's not that I necessarily *believe* in reincarnation. It's just that I don't totally throw it out, either. It seems to me to be reconcilable with Christianity, particularly if one is coming down on the universalist side of the eternal life debate (which I don't, necessarily, but it's something to consider).*

If God is omnibenevolent, which is to say that God is all-loving, then why not consider the possibility that God might give souls another shot at the earthly life? People screw up for all sorts of reasons, and don't seek forgiveness as they ought or don't fully accept Christ. If we assume that through the sacrifice of Christ, God demonstrated that the goal was to save all humanity from the powers of sin and death, then God does not wish to lose a single soul to those powers.

Reincarnation can be viewed as another way in which God triumphs over death and shows love for creation. This is just a possible and rough argument, and not even one I necessarily buy, but it's a perspective on the issue nonetheless.

*For those of you without a theology/philosophy background: Universalism holds that ultimately no souls are damned to hell. Some universalists simply believe that hell does not exist. Others believe that upon or shortly after judgment day, hell is either emptied or annihilated. Universalists believe that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would not allow souls to be condemned to hell. Again, not *necessarily* my view, but one that some people do hold.
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Old 07-24-2003, 12:34 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


According to "Born Agains" they've already died once.
You're exactly right. Who I was before, my sin nature, was crucified with Christ, and I was raised to newness of life In Christ. I will not die again. My flesh will perish, but that's just the vessel that contains my spirit...my "jar of clay". Who I really am-my spirit-will live eternally.
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Old 07-24-2003, 12:52 AM   #19
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Question for anyone who believes there is more to come when we die, do you think too, that this life is the start?
I've never heard outside the typical wingnut who believes they were Marie Antoinette, a claim that there was anything before this life.
I wonder sometimes if there is an element of fear or anxiousness in our knowledge we do not know before this life, so we are afraid there might be nothing ahead so we accept too readily or with the subconcious intent of easing the mind that there is indeed something to follow.
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
If God is omnibenevolent, which is to say that God is all-loving, then why not consider the possibility that God might give souls another shot at the earthly life? People screw up for all sorts of reasons, and don't seek forgiveness as they ought or don't fully accept Christ. If we assume that through the sacrifice of Christ, God demonstrated that the goal was to save all humanity from the powers of sin and death, then God does not wish to lose a single soul to those powers.

Reincarnation can be viewed as another way in which God triumphs over death and shows love for creation.
That's an excellent point. Makes perfect sense to me.

I personally think reincarnation is possible-I believe in it.

It's either that, or our spirits come back to watch over those who we've left behind. I personally think one of those two things could happen after we die.

Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
Universalism holds that ultimately no souls are damned to hell. Some universalists simply believe that hell does not exist. Universalists believe that an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would not allow souls to be condemned to hell. Again, not *necessarily* my view, but one that some people do hold.
That's my view.

In fact, I'm kinda liking the idea that this one girl mentioned once when I was talking to her, it links reincarnation and heaven-she said that her mom believed that if we are good people, we go to heaven right away when we die. If we aren't, we just get reincarnated until one of those lives is a good one that will lead us to heaven.

For me, I wouldn't exactly call that final place heaven...but I do think we go somewhere after we die. Just don't know if I'd call it heaven.

But that's another theory to throw in here.

Angela
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Old 07-24-2003, 04:28 AM   #21
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I believe that in life we have the free choice to accept the good news spread by jesus christ
(no matter what you do, you will never be good enough to get into heaven by our own doings - it's much easier, we have to accept jesus as the saviour - if we do that and let jesus enter our heart we will automatically do good things, but they are not the basis for getting into heaven).

So i believe when we die we will kind of "sleep" . When Jesus comes to earth the 2nd time he will take the ones who accepted him to eternal life, the others will simply die forever (no torture, hell or something like that)

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Old 07-24-2003, 04:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus


So i believe when we die we will kind of "sleep" . When Jesus comes to earth the 2nd time he will take the ones who accepted him to eternal life, the others will simply die forever (no torture, hell or something like that)

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Old 07-24-2003, 07:22 AM   #23
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deep:
well i guess he will make sure that everyone gets the chance to hear voice mail ;-) even if some of them never heared words like "Jesus" "God"
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:13 AM   #24
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Klaus, you more or less expressed my thoughts. At least, after a lot of study, that's where I've been led to believe seems the most plausible at the moment.
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:05 AM   #25
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Being not very religious, the only answer I can give is that we need to live our lives to the fullest now in the present, and then when we pass on whatever happens will happen...

I cannot prepare for that now, nor will I spend my life living a certain way just in case I will be judged after I die.

Now I am not saying that I am going to go out and be evil, but I think if there is a higher being, the life we have now is what we need to pay attention to and use to our advantage, as well as the advantage of others. This is what that higher being would have wanted, and that is why we have the opportunity to do so.
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:20 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You're exactly right. Who I was before, my sin nature, was crucified with Christ, and I was raised to newness of life In Christ. I will not die again. My flesh will perish, but that's just the vessel that contains my spirit...my "jar of clay". Who I really am-my spirit-will live eternally.
I have a question...When I use the term "born again" I think of someone who lived a life and then discover Christ later on in their life, they repent and become "born again". You say you will not die again, now is that a personal statement or is that a universal statement for "born agains". What if you fall from your walk and turn your back on God? Is it possible to die twice?

My other question is a person who was raised in the church all their life, grew up believing and following God...they are obviously sinners but never made that life altering turn around in their life because it was always there. When do they die?
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I have a question...When I use the term "born again" I think of someone who lived a life and then discover Christ later on in their life, they repent and become "born again". You say you will not die again, now is that a personal statement or is that a universal statement for "born agains". What if you fall from your walk and turn your back on God? Is it possible to die twice?

My other question is a person who was raised in the church all their life, grew up believing and following God...they are obviously sinners but never made that life altering turn around in their life because it was always there. When do they die?
Two excellent questions.

1. Can you lose your salvation? There is nothing in Scripture to support the idea that you can lose your salvation. Once we are justified before God through His grace, it is not taken away. Sure, we can stumble, walk away, get angry with God, sin (more), or backslide (the Baptist's term), but we never lose our place with God.

There are two elements that go with this. First, you must hve truly accepted Jesus and Lord and Savior. It is a confession with the mouth and a belief in the heart. If it is the mouth alone, you may fool your neighbor, but you won't fool God. Another element is that we do suffer when we fall from our walk. Our sanctification (the process which makes us more like Christ) slows down or stops. God spends our lives molding us into His perfect image through trials, tribulations, teaching, service, etc.

2. When do those raised in the Church "die" and become born again? Every person must make their own decision to place their faith in Christ alone for salvation. Their parents can't do it for them. I know many people who grew up in the church, but never make that personal committment (until later in life). Church essentially becomes a good, wholesome learning/service/fun activity once a week (this is not unusual in any way, I know many who treat our church as a country club - a place to socialize with others).

On the other hand, there are many children who make this choice as they are growing up in the Church. This is one thing that is included in most children's or youth programs at a church.
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