What do you believe... - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-11-2006, 12:49 AM   #16
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:22 PM
I believe that science, logic, and reason are manifestations of God, rather than opponents.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 01:04 AM   #17
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
I believe that science, logic, and reason are manifestations of God, rather than opponents.

Melon
I would agree that they can be gifts from God, but I couldn't figure out why you would say they are manifestations of God, since manifestation means "materialized form of a spirit" until I went back and read the #2 definition:

"An indication of the existence, reality, or presence of something"

That makes perfect sense.

This reminds me of an idea that I have toyed with in the past, and I'm still not sure if I believe or not.

Have you ever heard of the idea that Sin, with a capital "S", the Sin talked about in Romans 6-8 is actually a persona, the devil's copycat ripoff of the Holy Spirit, the force that drives the sin nature? I'm not talking about "sins" as in acts that you and I do wrong, but sin as in

"sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death"

and

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace".
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 02:42 AM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest



This reminds me of an idea that I have toyed with in the past, and I'm still not sure if I believe or not.

Have you ever heard of the idea that Sin, with a capital "S", the Sin talked about in Romans 6-8 is actually a persona, the devil's copycat ripoff of the Holy Spirit, the force that drives the sin nature? I'm not talking about "sins" as in acts that you and I do wrong, but sin as in

"sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death"

and

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace".
sounds like something I could go with


i don't buy this crap

we are all sinners

people should speak for themselves

if someone wants to say

I believe I was born a sinner

that's fine

i believe one is constantly making small individual choices

either one's heart is in a kind/ and decent place

or one's heart can be in a cold or selfish place

and because I hate absolutes, either/or

sometimes one's heart is not involved


so if 80's
wants to say a person who's heart is in the right place - is with the holy spirit

and one who's actions and treatments of others is cold or selfish - is with a Sin nature persona

well, I can go with that
__________________
deep is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 07:56 AM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep


so if 80's
wants to say a person who's heart is in the right place - is with the holy spirit

and one who's actions and treatments of others is cold or selfish - is with a Sin nature persona

well, I can go with that
Well, to be honest, that's not what I meant. I don't believe that everyone is born a "sinner", but I do believe that everyone is born with a "sin nature", not the Holy Spirit). I believe that everyone is born with the sin nature (the propulsion to sin, which I believe is the devil persona, the copycat of the Holy Spirit) and that once you knowingly commit one sin (ie: you knew it was wrong at the time you did it), you become a "sinner". I don't equate "sinner" with "horrible person", because like I said, one sin will make you a sinner, and every adult I know has committed sin. A "sinner" could do 99 % good things and only 1 % sin, but it doesn't change the fact that by nature, he/she is a sinner. The problem is that God is perfect and holy and just and righteous. His nature is such that he can not abide in the presence of sin. So that creates a problem for us...we who are stained by sin; the price for our sin is death and eternity away from God. This isn't some arbitrary decision by God, but rather a natural result within the spiritual law because of who God is. For God to change this spiritual law would require that he change his very own nature, which is the one thing I believe God can't do. But God saw that this was the case and enacted a rescue plan. That rescue plan's name is Jesus Christ. He is God's only son. When he walked upon the earth, Christ was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. He went through the same temptations as we do and worse (40 days in the desert being tempted by the devil), but never gave in to temptation, even when he was tempted to go against God's plan and save his own life (in the Garden of Gethsemane). Being 100% human, he didn't want to go through the pain of torture and the cross. Being 100% God, he could have said "God, I'm not going to die" and went back up to Heaven. But he didn't. He, an innocent man who had never sinned, took upon himself the punishment that "Sin" demanded of us all - the punishment of death and separation from God. Being a man, he did what we will do - he died. But being God, he did what we can't do by our own power - he raised from the dead. He defeated death and therefore defeated "Sin" and its curse upon mankind. If anyone believes in him, Christ's blood will wash away that person's "Sin" and Christ will give that person a new nature, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit comes with a new propulsion - the propulsion to obey God and do what's right in his eyes. That doesn't mean that person will always do what right, but he/she will always want to. That person's sin is forgiven, and since he/she is now spiritually clean, he/she is acceptable to God and can enter his presence.

I think it's very important to note here my belief that people who are truly not aware that they are sinning (and are not aware of right and wrong), and are not aware that they have ever sinned, are not held accountable for it. This belief differs from the beliefs of many Christians. However, I do believe there are Bible verses to back this up, including this, from Christ himself, John 9:40-41:

Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

and these words from Paul, Romans 7:7-12:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

I believe that children and severely mentally retarded people go to Heaven even if they have not actually made the decision to accept Christ as Savior before they die, because they are not aware of their sin. There are many Christians who would disagree with me on that one. I even have a friend who I think would disagree.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 09:17 AM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,174
Local Time: 04:22 PM
Good post JanuaryStar! If we weren't continually questioning ideas and seeking truth, we'd be even more smug hypocrits. I agree that we're on a journey. We can either sit in the terminal or step on the plane.
__________________
SunBloc is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 10:41 AM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:22 PM
If God is so omnipotent then why would he have to waste time with a blood debt? And why should he only have one son, this entity could be a man making machine if it wanted to.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 10:44 AM   #22
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,482
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If God is so omnipotent then why would he have to waste time with a blood debt? And why should he only have one son, this entity could be a man making machine if it wanted to.


there is some twisted logic, isn't there?

hi, here's my son. because i love you, torture him to death, then you'll be saved.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 08-11-2006, 10:58 AM   #23
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 08:22 PM
Limited human logic - and a mischaracterization of the Gospel message.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 11:02 AM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:22 PM
Dpes the theology sit well with Ockham's Razor?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 08-11-2006, 11:18 AM   #25
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,482
Local Time: 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Limited human logic - and a mischaracterization of the Gospel message.


limited human logic or boundless capacity for human credulity?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now  
Old 08-12-2006, 05:43 AM   #26
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
JanuaryStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: World of Dreams
Posts: 9,159
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by SunBloc
Good post JanuaryStar! If we weren't continually questioning ideas and seeking truth, we'd be even more smug hypocrits. I agree that we're on a journey. We can either sit in the terminal or step on the plane.
Thanks SunBloc, and you're totally right!
__________________
JanuaryStar is offline  
Old 08-13-2006, 08:07 PM   #27
War Child
 
najeena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: an island paradise
Posts: 995
Local Time: 04:22 AM
Ockham's Razor... elegant simplicity from a man who lived in the brutal thirteenth century. Something akin to 'the simplest explanation is most likely the true one.'
__________________
najeena is offline  
Old 08-14-2006, 05:47 PM   #28
JCR
The Fly
 
JCR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Higley, Arizona (it's a chunk of land in Gilbert AZ)
Posts: 79
Local Time: 04:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




limited human logic or boundless capacity for human credulity?
Boundless capacity for human credulity
Jan.Star, Have a good time with your search, just don't allow yourself to be mislead by fanatics. The fear of death can cause the human being to believe in a morass of fantastical things.
Personally, philosophy and the art of critical thinking "saved"-- (AHHHHH, there's that word again! Please, no suggestions on how to be saved)--me.
Read, read, read and then read some more grrrl. Enjoy the ride....
(I'm still riding.)
While riding: keep your hands outside the car at all times and pick up, you guessed it, books;
And music:
"I believe in coyotes
and time as an abstract,
explain the change
the difference between
what you want and what you need
...there's the key..." (REM)(sorry, had to get that out, the song's been in my head since reading the intitial thread);
Watch the ZOOROPA video at least ten times.
I can recommend other books and philosophical treatises if you'd like...but I shant bore the rest...

And always remember: fantastical claims require substantial proofs.



__________________
JCR is offline  
Old 08-14-2006, 06:15 PM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 04:22 AM
I also believe that we are all born sinners. That only means that no one is perfect, unlike God. I don't think it's a major deal, I don't spend my life moaning that I'm some wretched creature because I'm not.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-19-2006, 08:44 AM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
JanuaryStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: World of Dreams
Posts: 9,159
Local Time: 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by JCR


Boundless capacity for human credulity
Jan.Star, Have a good time with your search, just don't allow yourself to be mislead by fanatics. The fear of death can cause the human being to believe in a morass of fantastical things.
Personally, philosophy and the art of critical thinking "saved"-- (AHHHHH, there's that word again! Please, no suggestions on how to be saved)--me.
Read, read, read and then read some more grrrl. Enjoy the ride....
(I'm still riding.)
While riding: keep your hands outside the car at all times and pick up, you guessed it, books;
And music:
"I believe in coyotes
and time as an abstract,
explain the change
the difference between
what you want and what you need
...there's the key..." (REM)(sorry, had to get that out, the song's been in my head since reading the intitial thread);
Watch the ZOOROPA video at least ten times.
I can recommend other books and philosophical treatises if you'd like...but I shant bore the rest...

And always remember: fantastical claims require substantial proofs.



JCR, thanks so much for your reaction

And I don't think I will be mislead by fanatics that quickly, I have a pretty strong intuition of who are the 'real deal', and who are not. I just like to think that when I die, I want to have seen the world, or at least all the different visions that exist, then just having clung to one faith/belief in which I wouldn't have felt happy at all.

But I will look out, and look around... So thanks again, I appreciate your thoughts a lot
__________________

__________________
JanuaryStar is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com